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zhivago6

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This is one of the best ideas for a mod that I've ever seen, and I tried it out immediately, but there's only a few characters on the map i can choose from (although the rest show up once i start playing), and when i click the religion tab the game crashes.

The mod is still in the early stages. The download is just an alpha so people who are interested can take a look and put forward their own ideas and input.

I am trying to add in events and decisions but I keep crashing. I would like to get some vanilla events at least back in so I can better test it out as I am adding duchies and characters.
 

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Are you going to break up some of the cultures more ? The Andeas at least need to be broken up into smaller cultures I think. Also if I remember correctly Quechua was spread by the Inca and people assimilated to that culture. The Maya also have subdivision that might warrant different Maya cultures, but you would have to ask someone else.

Also, will you have provinces in the southern Andean mountains ? I don't think the Inca or other Andean empires can expand to the historical size of the Inca empire in this setup.

But yeah, otherwise looks great. Didn't expect you to come with some culture specific holding pictures so fast.
 

zhivago6

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Are you going to break up some of the cultures more ? The Andeas at least need to be broken up into smaller cultures I think. Also if I remember correctly Quechua was spread by the Inca and people assimilated to that culture. The Maya also have subdivision that might warrant different Maya cultures, but you would have to ask someone else.

Also, will you have provinces in the southern Andean mountains ? I don't think the Inca or other Andean empires can expand to the historical size of the Inca empire in this setup.

But yeah, otherwise looks great. Didn't expect you to come with some culture specific holding pictures so fast.

I think I mentioned once before I won't be expanding the map any time soon. That is more of a long term project. Someone else made the map, I just adapted it and added rivers. But yes, the Incan empire went south a lot more than is possible with this map.

I will add cultures eventually, but it takes a really long time. And you have to remember that this game takes place in 1066 and it is fairly clear that all the different native tribes and subgroups encountered by Europeans were not static groups but changed and split off from larger groups. If I was working in an area and it seemed like there were many different culture groups to choose from I went back and tried to figure out the oldest group, culturally or linguistically, and I made the culture of that area match the 'old' group. Obviously there is disagreement of who the 'oldest' is but I did my best. Once I get things working well my first order of business will be to add more cultures.
 

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The download's not working anymore.
 

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I will add cultures eventually, but it takes a really long time. And you have to remember that this game takes place in 1066 and it is fairly clear that all the different native tribes and subgroups encountered by Europeans were not static groups but changed and split off from larger groups. If I was working in an area and it seemed like there were many different culture groups to choose from I went back and tried to figure out the oldest group, culturally or linguistically, and I made the culture of that area match the 'old' group. Obviously there is disagreement of who the 'oldest' is but I did my best. Once I get things working well my first order of business will be to add more cultures.

I think you should represent the Mapure/Arawak. They're the largest known family of South American languages, extending into Central America, parts of Florida, and the Caribbean (Tainos were Arawak, Guahatabeyes and Carib were not. However, the Lesser Antilles, marked Carib on this map, had supposedly only recently come under Carib rule when Columbus arrived, and were previously Arawak).

This map might also be useful.

And one for the Carib

I know this is pretty hard to piece together sometimes, and that the situation in 1066 was not the same as 1492. However, we might as well go with what we know for lack of better sources.

Thanks for the mod, looks awesome! I'd love to help with this sort of thing.

EDIT: I'd be happy to edit the culture map, here's a quick mock-up.

Obviously, all regions need more specialization, but this is a good start. I don't know too much about map-making, but it'd be great to include the rest of South America, as well as the Amazon (since some of these languages extend further in, and as you can see in this picture, there's a little bit of Tupi poking out the other side). I know this isn't your priority right now, though.

Anyways, I'll see about messing with the mod files to update cultures, and if you're interested I can share what I come up with.
 
Last edited:

zhivago6

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Could I have permission to post the cultures on the new cultures resource?

Of course.

@deutschland55,
For the start, 1066 will be the only start date. I plan on end date of 1550. I do not have EU or anything so I do not know how to transfer data from one game to another, and this mod will not be set up to do that. When there is time, or if someone else wants to help, I will add more start dates.

@Parha,
Sounds like a good idea, thanks!

@LumberKing,
I will try and look at it this weekend.

@psxws,
Great stuff! I like your ideas. I am not a map maker either, I just am using this map that someone else made. I really am not very good at map editing.

I have not been working on the mod much lately due to family issues. I will be back at it this weekend though.
 

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I tried downloading the alpha but I got an access denied and it may be bought on amazon.

Edit: Ok and now it makes me a liar.

It does that without alot of files.
 

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Somehow my files on Mediafire got copyrighted. I am trying to figure out how I can resolve that. Until then, no downloads.

Wut!?
 

zhivago6

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When I went onto MediaFire to check why the downloads were not working, there is a little 'c' in a circle on it and the pop up text when you hover says: This file is copyrighted. I can't figure out how to un-copyright it since I am certain that I never did it in the first place.

Edit: Somehow, after submitting a help form, my files on MediaFire are no longer copyrighted. I should post a new file in a day or two.
 
Last edited:

zhivago6

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I have made little progress since my last update. I filled out the baronies for Iroquois, and added more kingdoms/duchies/baronies for areas around the great lakes. I was focusing on Central and South America but it seemed like a lot of people wanted more North American tribes so I moved work up here to keep people interested.

Currently deciding how big to make the Shawnee area. I know many people will want it to be its own culture, but I can't keep adding cultures, it takes far too long on a mod that I am currently the only one working on. Instead the Shawnee will be a duchy and maybe later it can be its own culture.

The same problem arises with the Anishinaabe. Yes, in some ways they seem like a separate and unique culture, at other times they quickly get absorbed into the culture of neighboring tribes, so how unique were they? I have found lots of different maps showing different areas for these people, and they may all be correct, if looking at the right time frame. According to the Wiigwaasabak (birch-bark scrolls) the Three Fires Confederacy was formed in 796 AD, so I have added that as a kingdom, but what area should it cover? The confederation involved the Ottawa, Chippewa, and Potawatomi. The Ottawa occupied both Northern Lower Peninsula of Michigan and also Southern Ontario. I looked for a different name for one of them, and picked an Ottawa name for the Southern group and made that one duchy, while leaving the Northern Group the duchy called Ottawa. The Chippewa occupied the Upper Peninsula Michigan so that became a duchy, and the Potawatomi occupied the central and Southern portions of Lower Peninsula of Michigan so that helped define another duchy. But, of course there is the West coast of the the Lower Peninsula of Michigan with lots and lots of Anishinaabe place names, but it is unclear which tribal group occupied it during our game timeframe. Instead I made a new duchy called Anishinaabe. Now, because the West coast of Lower Peninsula of Michigan is included in the Oneota mound builder culture maps, do I keep that with the Kingdom of Oneota, or add it to the new kingdom of Three Fires Confederacy? Technically, I will have more than three fires in the confederacy anyway, because of the Northern and Southern Ottawa, which the natives themselves did not consider separate peoples but I need to for the sake of the game.

This is the kind of thing I wrestle with and why I give up on the mod for a few weeks at the time. There is no good answer and someone will complain no matter what I do.
 

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A few questions:

What year is the mod set in? (Possibly a dumb question.)

Would you consider adding Chan Chan as the capital of a de jure Chimor kingdom? Even after Chimor was absorbed into Tawantinsuyu, the rulers of Chan Chan remained in control over their territories, but now owed tribute to the Sapa Inka. Chan Chan's a fascinating and intriguing archaeological site, though flavour stuff might be a bit speculative since it's so open to interpretation.

I could generally help you flesh out South America, if you like. Tawantinsuyu was not an ethnically or linguistically homogeneous empire; not by any stretch of the imagination. It was comparable to the Roman Empire in terms of internal diversity and dynamics.

Edit: When I say "help", that includes some of the actual modding. I can write a culture file pretty easily, as well as do the research.
 

zhivago6

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A few questions:

What year is the mod set in? (Possibly a dumb question.)

Would you consider adding Chan Chan as the capital of a de jure Chimor kingdom? Even after Chimor was absorbed into Tawantinsuyu, the rulers of Chan Chan remained in control over their territories, but now owed tribute to the Sapa Inka. Chan Chan's a fascinating and intriguing archaeological site, though flavour stuff might be a bit speculative since it's so open to interpretation.

I could generally help you flesh out South America, if you like. Tawantinsuyu was not an ethnically or linguistically homogeneous empire; not by any stretch of the imagination. It was comparable to the Roman Empire in terms of internal diversity and dynamics.

Edit: When I say "help", that includes some of the actual modding. I can write a culture file pretty easily, as well as do the research.

1066 AD Start Date. No questions are dumb, some are just more relevant than others.

I think you know more about Chan Chan than I do, so I think it sounds like a great idea. If you want to help that would be great too. I will try to post a new master file so you can download it tomorrow. I am also thinking about breaking the music out of the mod and have it as a second download. The file is getting really large and I saw another mod did something similar, I just need to figure it out.

I had most of South American and Central America broke out in duchies prior to my reboot and I think I have images of them somewhere if I can find them.

The Shawnee became a 5 county duchy with the 4 county duchy of Kickapoo just North of it. The Kickapoo were offshoots of the Shawnee as far as I know. The Shawnee territory corresponds roughly with the Fort Ancient culture of the time period. I am currently searching for native american place names for baronies. You can't have a grand empire with 1 and 2 barony counties! I may have to use clan names or animal names as baronies if I can't find anything else.
 

Vintage Zombie

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I think you know more about Chan Chan than I do, so I think it sounds like a great idea. If you want to help that would be great too. I will try to post a new master file so you can download it tomorrow. I am also thinking about breaking the music out of the mod and have it as a second download. The file is getting really large and I saw another mod did something similar, I just need to figure it out.

Awesome! South America has the potential to be really interesting. In Chan Chan, each successive king built a Ciudadela - a sort of palace/administrative centre with high walls that was basically laid out like a maze, with every winding passage watched over by numerous administrators in podium-like audiencias - which served as their residence and administrative headquarters in life and their tomb in death. It's probable that each Ciudadela continued to be used for administrative functions and the training of bureaucrats, sort of like a government agency, university, mausoleum and perhaps temple to the dead king rolled into one. At the height of Chan Chan's power, Qusqu was a tiny mountain kingdom. Around 1066, Chan Chan had been around for about 166 years, so it was nearing its height.

The rulers of Chan Chan built the Chicama-Moche canal, a 70 km canal connecting the Chicama and Moche rivers to ease communication and irrigation across their realm, which was concentrated in the river valleys of the Atacama (though it probably never actually worked). Their taxation system, wherein most vassals paid taxes in the form of labour for construction projects, was probably copied by Tawantinsuyu after it absorbed Chan Chan. Canals could be simulated with buildings easily enough, and the corvée taxation system might be very well simulated by the new tribal construction mechanics from Charlemagne, using prestige rather than gold to build.

The Chimú religion held that the Chimú were descended from the stars. There appears to have been a caste system, consisting of an endogamous royal caste descended from certain particularly sacred stars. Below the royalty was the lesser nobility, who inhabited the 'intermediate' class of structures at Chan Chan, which resembled Ciudadelas writ small. The nobility perhaps provided the administrators who worked in the Ciudadelas, as well as provincial governors. Then there were the commoners, who lived in the Small, Irregular, Agglutinated Rooms (SIARs). They were essentially a population of craftspersons dependent upon the royalty for patronage. Chan Chan's metalworkers were particularly esteemed, and were all relocated to Qusqu following Inka conquest. As with the Indian caste system, Noble and Common caste could be linked to castle and city holdings respectively. Royal caste could be a prerequisite to inheritance.

Chan Chan seems to have been unique in the scale of construction, but there were regional administrative centres whose architecture in some respects resembled that of the intermediate structures. It might be an idea to have the primary holdings in most of the Chimor region be cities, requiring the player to construct a castle as an administrative centre and switch it to the capital by decision, event or in the usual way (revoking the 'county') or else leave the subjugated village (i.e. city) rulers in charge of their provinces.

There are some difficulties, particularly, as is often the case with Precolumbian America, with the language. We have the names of some of the rulers...

- 900?–960? Tacaynamo
- 960?–1020? Guacricaur
- 1020?–1080? Ñancempinco
- 1440?–1470 Minchancaman

...but sadly not much else, to the effect that a lot would have to be made up. One idea might be to use the English translation of Spanish terms - I find the use of the Spanish terms themselves sort of malapropos for a mod about the Precolumbian era, while the English term is less jarring, being plausibly just descriptive of function ('Citadel' or 'auditorium' instead of 'Ciudadela' or 'audiencia'.) Fortunately, in the case of the Inka, the terms relevant to administration are much more readily available to us, by merit of their being the greatest conquerors and state-builders of the Precolumbian world. The Quechuan language family and its oral tradition are alive and well in the present.

The administration of Tawantinsuyu could be modelled using game mechanics in a way that would make them very unique to play. One of the main motors for Runakuna/Nunakuna (the self-designation of the so-called 'Inka') expansion was the split inheritance system. Because the Sapa Inka was considered divine, and therefore immortal, the personal holdings of each Sapa Inka remained owned by that Sapa Inka (i.e. by their mummy) following their death. New rulers did not inherit their father's personal property; it remained legally (to the extent that the term is applicable) the property of the dead ruler, managed by the royal mummy's cult. Mummies played an important role in ceremonial life, being dressed up, ritually fed at feasts, paraded around, and so on. Province modifiers severely limiting the levies and taxation from provinces, applied after the death of the ruler who conquered them, could simulate that system, requiring the player to hand out their previous ruler's holdings (except in the core area around Qusqu) and conquer new land if they want to have productive provinces with large levies.

The administrative strategy of Tawantinsuyu was very variable over time and between provinces, in some places being very territorial (involving direct occupation and centralised administration) and in others being very hegemonic (closer to feudal vassalage, with subjugated rulers remaining in charge and autonomous so long as they paid their dues). This could be modelled using crown laws, CBs and holding types: a CB that directly occupies all holdings in a territory could be used to allow the player to give that territory to a city vassal, representing a direct governor controlled from Qusqu. Given that the main concern in areas occupied territorially was the extraction of wealth and construction of infrastructure, CK2's city ruler mechanics are quite apropos. A crown law could then be used to control whether directly occupied territories are focused on levies or on taxation.

A different CB which vassalises the former ruler could be used to model the hegemonic strategy. Where an entrenched and cooperative elite existed already, Tawantinsuyu left them largely to run their own affairs. Rulers of such provinces were required either to send labour to Qusqu or to send soldiers to fight for the Sapa Inka, not both. It might be a bit harder to model that, but perhaps honorific titles could be used - one set of crown laws, tied to one honorific title, would increase levies and reduce taxation; another, the opposite.

Religiously, the Sapa Inka should probably be a secular religious head of the official state religion, which was focused on the divinity of the Sapa Inka and the royal mummies (a good, flavourful honorific title would be Curator of the Royal Mummies, or something like that, providing piety and a boost to temple vassal opinion). Tolerance of other religions should probably be very high by default. By and large, Sapa Inkas did not attempt to convert conquered populations. They did build ritual centres and hold regional festivities in honour of the royal mummies and the god king, where participation was probably compulsory, but aside from that, subjects of Tawantinsuyu were free to practice their native traditions and customs. The religious authority of the Sapa Inka could perhaps, then, be modelled using festival decision mechanics (like Hold a Feast, Observe Ramadan, etc.), where refusal of a vassal to participate would be tantamount to a declaration of open rebellion.

I have more ideas, but this is already very long! :p I go back to university soon, where I have access to a universal library, so I can also look into the other South American cultures. In the period the mod is set in, the Aymara Kingdoms were the most significant South American power, but I know very little about them. If the map could be expanded further into Bolivia, the Yampara could also be included; later on, they were very important Inka vassals, given special status within the empire for the contribution of their soldiers to the subjugation of Chimor, which was then Tawantinsuyu's chief rival.

Edit: As for separating the music, I think you just have to create another mod folder and .mod file, put all the music-related stuff in that folder and write the .mod file to replace the relevant directories.
 
Last edited:

zhivago6

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Wow, @Vintage Zombie, you know a lot about Chan Chan! If you want to code CB's or add religious events, go right ahead. I have a bit more tweaking to do but I should get the file uploaded tonight. Then you can make some modifications and send me just the changed files and I can dump them in and test it out. If you want to just break up the kingdoms into duchies that is great as well. I am using the custom map tool to fill out my map, so if that is what you want to do I can show you how that works.

If you want to make more cultures then please understand, I do not have time to do the research! Every culture has to have many male and female first names, several dynasty names, names for all the positions in the court (i.e. steward, marshal), names for titles (Duke, Countess, Mayor), names for political units (Kingdom, Barony), special events, special decisions, and localisations!

I cheated and made South America only 3 cultures. I am in complete agreement that every native culture should be represented in a mod like this, but the reality is that there are too many. This is a way bigger than most game expansions and nobody is getting paid for it, except in pure enjoyment of alternate history. I am also in no way an expert in Native American history. I have a library card and internet access. If you have better ideas, I would love to hear them. Preferably with example maps.