[MOD] A New World, The Dawn of Empires

[monsterfurby]

One thing I was wondering - is it possible that some Barbarians never become civilized? In my current game, I have two major barbarian powers in the year 161, just idling around and sitting on armies numbering beyond 15k (all gained from peasant revolts and conquest troops, I suppose). Shouldn't they at some point at least civilize?

 

[stars2heaven]

One thing I was wondering - is it possible that some Barbarians never become civilized? In my current game, I have two major barbarian powers in the year 161, just idling around and sitting on armies numbering beyond 15k (all gained from peasant revolts and conquest troops, I suppose). Shouldn't they at some point at least civilize?

I think Gladdig wanted it to be possible that some barbarians remained on the map for long periods of time. It's possible that they could civilize, but it's also possible that they won't. Also, even with such big armies they are easier to kill off than you might expect.

 

[monsterfurby]

I think Gladdig wanted it to be possible that some barbarians remained on the map for long periods of time. It's possible that they could civilize, but it's also possible that they won't.

Okay, I see the reasoning behind that. It also creates some interesting gameplay situations. On the other hand, of course, you kind of end up with a relocated "Golden Horde Problem" where barbarians basically have legions upon legions of upkeep-free troops which you'll never be able to touch, especially in the fragmented world you have at the beginning. And with every revolt, their armies grow and grow.

 

[stars2heaven]

Okay, I see the reasoning behind that. It also creates some interesting gameplay situations. On the other hand, of course, you kind of end up with a relocated "Golden Horde Problem" where barbarians basically have legions upon legions of upkeep-free troops which you'll never be able to touch, especially in the fragmented world you have at the beginning. And with every revolt, their armies grow and grow.

True, but they tend to congregate their armies. If they go to war with a decent sized civilized country they may lose if the civilized guy goes for the hordes counties quickly enough, despite having vastly superior numbers. With 0 garrison they can be taken instantly so you should be able to take more of his counties than he can of yours if you are smart. You can even split your armies and let him chase one around while you send someone off to take all his counties. The horde AI isn't very smart.

It's true though that large horde powers tend to become even larger if someone near by fragments.

 

[justryme]

I don't know how to make the AI disband it's troops, and the buff is a bit random since it is random exactly when you get it. I don't know what to do about that.

I like playing the mod with no horde system at all starting on the year 111. Can't you just remove the barbarian buff? You changed it so we start with 0-1 gold and no cities/baronies in the counties so why even give out the barbarian buff? I would rather just play the game straight on from there because with the buff I can't even take counties anyways. You made the garrisons be about 1k and i can't even raise a army that size (I can raise about 971 with a lvl14 marshal). Even if i had say 1200 troops, when i combat the AI im going to lose some and it will be pretty hard to siege without constantly fighting and disbanding to pick up the reinforcements. I don't play the horde mode versions much but whats the point the barbarian buff? Can you disable it for the no horde mode version?

Edit: About not knowing how to made the AI disband its troops, I know from playing in Ck2+ mod they made a check box in the intrigue panel that says something around making the AI disband its troops. Maybe that could help you out in search for a solution.

 

[Oden19]

Hello!
Gladdig_kaga you have to fix the reformed holy seat antipope(s) or is it immposible to fix?

 

[monsterfurby]

True, but they tend to congregate their armies. If they go to war with a decent sized civilized country they may lose if the civilized guy goes for the hordes counties quickly enough, despite having vastly superior numbers. With 0 garrison they can be taken instantly so you should be able to take more of his counties than he can of yours if you are smart. You can even split your armies and let him chase one around while you send someone off to take all his counties. The horde AI isn't very smart.

It's true though that large horde powers tend to become even larger if someone near by fragments.

You're right of course, it's quite possible to beat them - and quite gratifying if you manage. I myself am not too sure if it's not actually a pretty great parallel to the Roman Empire(s).

Also, if you want a challenge, try uniting Spain as Asturias in this save.

 

[DCyDe]

I like playing the mod with no horde system at all starting on the year 111. Can't you just remove the barbarian buff? You changed it so we start with 0-1 gold and no cities/baronies in the counties so why even give out the barbarian buff? I would rather just play the game straight on from there because with the buff I can't even take counties anyways. You made the garrisons be about 1k and i can't even raise a army that size (I can raise about 971 with a lvl14 marshal). Even if i had say 1200 troops, when i combat the AI im going to lose some and it will be pretty hard to siege without constantly fighting and disbanding to pick up the reinforcements. I don't play the horde mode versions much but whats the point the barbarian buff? Can you disable it for the no horde mode version?

Edit: About not knowing how to made the AI disband its troops, I know from playing in Ck2+ mod they made a check box in the intrigue panel that says something around making the AI disband its troops. Maybe that could help you out in search for a solution.

i tackled some of those problems in the modified version of this mod (nerfed barbarism phase, only lasts 20 years) used in the friday/saturday mp game, which can be found here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?649841-Civ-Friday-0-30-AM-CET-6-30-PM-EST
maybe that is more to your liking

 

[Gladdig_kaga]

Allow me to just say that I absolutely love the feel of the new and improved horde phase. It has become much less gamey and more like an in-a-nutshell version of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire or - in earlier phases - the Chinese Warring States Period (if this mod and Umbra Spherae ever find each other, I would probably just die of joy). One might argue that it is too easy to conquer half the world, but since CK2 is in many respects (crusades etc.) based around a large community of equal-religion lords, why not have the player form the dominant religion? Also, conquering things is easy - keeping them... not so much. Especially now that making your second and third sons bishop is not that easy anymore...

All in all: loving the improvements. Here's hoping that the kinks will soon be ironed out and everything will continue to progress smoothly

Well, you could always reconquer the evil brothers. =P

I second this. And I think it might be useful to give the player a 'retire from war' decision that stops all war events for the player (so you won't be attacked, but won't conquer new lands either). It seemed to me that a good player can essentially conquer half the world in Horde phase. In my game I at one point just didn't want to conquer more since I wanted a somewhat balanced distribution of cultures, and it became really awkward trying not to conquer other states somehow.

That sounds like a bad solution to me. Instead I'd like the horde phase to be harder. Rhight now the AI can't really handle it and just put all soldiers in the same doomstack. I'll probably let hordes have a larger garrison for that reason. Any other suggestion on how to make it harder?

True.

Also, it is as of yet quite easy to "break" the civilization (i.e. shattering of the empire into counties) event chain by just pausing and founding a duchy or even kingdom before the "No One Listens To Me Anymore" event fires. Also, I am still wondering how after that, one-province counts with only one holding and no upgrades can magically produce 2k-armies to stomp over me, while I have to rebuild my levies...

Didn't see that, but that's easily fixed, I could just add that they go independent with the event. And I guess the huges stacks might be because they're still hordes?

Here are my thoughts on the horde phase. I actually like the way it is. I don't mind being able to conquer half the world... at least initially. The counter to that is obviously the fact that you are cut back to a single county after civilizing. That leaves a good chunck of the world as your religion and culture to now evolve on it's own. Here is what I think could be changed/improved.

1. I shouldn't retain strong claims on everything. It was too easy simply to "press all claims" and regain every bit of my lost territory within ten years of civilizing (all of africa and a good chunk of spain). I like to have to interact with other nations in other ways in order to claim land. That might include having to find those with claims on titles and get them into my court or various other intrigue options and using marriage. Right now I just declare war after war and there is no need to interact with any other nation in this way, including those of my religion and culture. In short, it makes it too easy to conquer half the world.

2. Even if I lost all my claims there are still a huge number of barbarians about that I can simply come in and basically get a free county from without even having any recently conquered penalties. I learned very quickly in my games to ignore civilized people in the beginning and go straight for barbarians. After the split up of my lands they were easy targets and I was able to accumulate a very large amount of land in a short time that included the vast majority of the land I gave up when I civilized. If perhaps there were a few more civilized peoples close to me, this fast early expansion could be prevented and if I conquered the civilized guys next to me via conquest I wouldn't be able to immediately pull up a larger levy to go hunting more like I could with the barbarians.

3. Also, it might help if barbarian lands took the recently conquered penalties as well when I capture them. It would help to mitigate the increase in the size of my army and allow some others time to expand some as well.

4. I don't like how when I have just crushed someone's army, and they are now retreating, they are able to conquer my land and recruit more soldiers the moment they arrive. I don't see these guys, who are battered and bloody and running for their lives, as having the time or being able to to totally pillage the land and force the people there to fight for them when those people know their true liege just kicked these guys butts and is on the way to do some more butt kicking. I think if the garrisons had maybe 10 or 20 people in them that this would be prevented from happening and provinces would still be very easy to capture. It would also prevent instances of a single soldier capturing a whole empire and winning the war single handedly while there is a 20k man army chasing him (as Gladdig knows, I did this)

The small garrisons could be thought of as the women, children, the elderly, and those few left behind to protect them who are not off rampaging with the horde. They could put up atleast some resistance towards an army that is disorganized and in full retreat, running for their lives. Atleast for a day or two..long enough for the main army to arrive and drive them out again or kill off the rest.

All in all, I like the new system and look forward to experiencing some of the other events that happen later on.

1) Good idea!
2,3) Also a good idea. xP
4) It is hard to give them exact size garrisons (why some counties have none and others about 80) I'll make their garrisons much larger I guess, but still smaller than civilized people.

Could there be a tax boost as well with the 'a bit barbarian'? Maybe 50%? Just so it's possible to keep an army raised without losing 10 gold per month.

Okay, that's probably a good idea as well. =P

One thing I was wondering - is it possible that some Barbarians never become civilized? In my current game, I have two major barbarian powers in the year 161, just idling around and sitting on armies numbering beyond 15k (all gained from peasant revolts and conquest troops, I suppose). Shouldn't they at some point at least civilize?

Some will stay barbarians forever as long as the owner has the savage trait, which is inherited from the father.

I like playing the mod with no horde system at all starting on the year 111. Can't you just remove the barbarian buff? You changed it so we start with 0-1 gold and no cities/baronies in the counties so why even give out the barbarian buff? I would rather just play the game straight on from there because with the buff I can't even take counties anyways. You made the garrisons be about 1k and i can't even raise a army that size (I can raise about 971 with a lvl14 marshal). Even if i had say 1200 troops, when i combat the AI im going to lose some and it will be pretty hard to siege without constantly fighting and disbanding to pick up the reinforcements. I don't play the horde mode versions much but whats the point the barbarian buff? Can you disable it for the no horde mode version?

Edit: About not knowing how to made the AI disband its troops, I know from playing in Ck2+ mod they made a check box in the intrigue panel that says something around making the AI disband its troops. Maybe that could help you out in search for a solution.

In the first place the barbarian buff was there to make the AI do something, which still applies if you don't use the horde system. It is also there so that civilized peoples can survive the hordes when they civilize.

i tackled some of those problems in the modified version of this mod (nerfed barbarism phase, only lasts 20 years) used in the friday/saturday mp game, which can be found here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?649841-Civ-Friday-0-30-AM-CET-6-30-PM-EST
maybe that is more to your liking

"The" modified version? Not to sound selfish or anything, but this seems a bit shameless. Not only did I not ever get a question if you could change my mod and upload it (which I think most people actually do), but then you actually come here and suggest people use that instead on the mods forum? At least I'd like to be asked first...
But sure, if anyone wants to use an old modified version of my mod go ahead. =P

Hello!
Gladdig_kaga you have to fix the reformed holy seat antipope(s) or is it immposible to fix?

I figured out just now a way to fix it. But before I was thinking about keeping it that way, then make reformed holy seats get huge boosts if they manage to have the moral authority high enough. So which one should it be?

 

[Oden19]

Gladdig you could nerf the reformed seats by 1. Giving them larger cult,reli penalty 2. Give them less troops 3. Take away their ability to do crusades. 4. Or something else.

 

[monsterfurby]

Some will stay barbarians forever as long as the owner has the savage trait, which is inherited from the father.

So basically it would be possible to force them into civilization by murdering the entire line of rulers? *starts sharpening knife*

 

[DCyDe]

"The" modified version? Not to sound selfish or anything, but this seems a bit shameless. Not only did I not ever get a question if you could change my mod and upload it (which I think most people actually do), but then you actually come here and suggest people use that instead on the mods forum? At least I'd like to be asked first...
But sure, if anyone wants to use an old modified version of my mod go ahead. =P

Sry, didn't mean any disrespect and i gave you credits on the mp-game thread, just trying to do some advertisement for the mp-game

 

[Gladdig_kaga]

So basically it would be possible to force them into civilization by murdering the entire line of rulers? *starts sharpening knife*

Haha, I also think any barbarian vassal whos ruler has the savage trait will get it. So good luck. =P

Gladdig you could nerf the reformed seats by 1. Giving them larger cult,reli penalty 2. Give them less troops 3. Take away their ability to do crusades. 4. Or something else.

Sounds good, except that I was looking for ways to make reformed holy seats more powerful, while keeping the succession crisis brought by all the antipopes that you'd have to kill. =P

Sry, didn't mean any disrespect and i gave you credits on the mp-game thread, just trying to do some advertisement for the mp-game

Yeah, but you should be careful, in some game forums you could get banned for something like that. I'm unsure if it applies to this forum, but you're lucky that I'm not the kind of person that would try to do that. But someone else might if the same happens to them (that, again, is if theese forums have rules against this).

 

[monsterfurby]

Haha, I also think any barbarian vassal whos ruler has the savage trait will get it. So good luck. =P

A bit anticlimactic, but I actually solved my barbarian doomstack problem. It kind of went like this:

Ruler I: "We shall be civilized now."
Barbarian: "Look at those morons! They think they're so smart! Here's an army of 10.000 men to teach them!"
Ruler II: "What!? We once ruled half of Europe, where'd all my troops go?"
Barbarian: "Kill them all!"
Ruler II: "Alright, I surrender."
Barbarian: "But we won't rest before you are all dead."
Ruler III: "My dad got it wrong. New strategy: murder them all!"
Barbarian II: "So you stuck a knife in my dad's back, and my three sons', and my brothers'. Now what? Now you die. 20.000 men doomstack GO!"
Ruler IV: "Alright, if we split up our troops, maybe we can drive them back..."
Barbarian III: "Nice try, but you'll never defeat us. Here, have another 30.000 men doomstack."
Ruler V: "Um... how about you become my vassal?"
Barbarian IV: "K."

Barbarian and doomstack have become Ruler V's vassals. Guess they just wanted someone to love them.

Too bad for them that this was followed by imprisonment and attainder (thus also dissolving the inhumanly massive doomstack with which they had just forced me to lower crown authority. Yeah, they had time for that).

 

[Cyneheard]

4) It is hard to give them exact size garrisons (why some counties have none and others about 80) I'll make their garrisons much larger I guess, but still smaller than civilized people.

This is from the martial training troops in a province: the levies are significant, but the garrison is still 0. Only 1 province per realm can have this buff, though.

 

[Gladdig_kaga]

A bit anticlimactic, but I actually solved my barbarian doomstack problem. It kind of went like this:

Ruler I: "We shall be civilized now."
Barbarian: "Look at those morons! They think they're so smart! Here's an army of 10.000 men to teach them!"
Ruler II: "What!? We once ruled half of Europe, where'd all my troops go?"
Barbarian: "Kill them all!"
Ruler II: "Alright, I surrender."
Barbarian: "But we won't rest before you are all dead."
Ruler III: "My dad got it wrong. New strategy: murder them all!"
Barbarian II: "So you stuck a knife in my dad's back, and my three sons', and my brothers'. Now what? Now you die. 20.000 men doomstack GO!"
Ruler IV: "Alright, if we split up our troops, maybe we can drive them back..."
Barbarian III: "Nice try, but you'll never defeat us. Here, have another 30.000 men doomstack."
Ruler V: "Um... how about you become my vassal?"
Barbarian IV: "K."

Barbarian and doomstack have become Ruler V's vassals. Guess they just wanted someone to love them.

Too bad for them that this was followed by imprisonment and attainder of all their titles (thus also dissolving the inhumanly massive doomstack with which they had just forced me to lower crown authority. Yeah, they had time for that).

HAHA! Great story! xD
How did you survive the 30.000 men before vassalizing them? You need peace to do that don't you? =P

This is from the martial training troops in a province: the levies are significant, but the garrison is still 0. Only 1 province per realm can have this buff, though.

Nah I'm pretty sure I've hade buffed provinces without using my martial, and I'm also pretty sure there has been more than one province with extra troops in the same realm.

 

[monsterfurby]

HAHA! Great story! xD
How did you survive the 30.000 men before vassalizing them? You need peace to do that don't you? =P

Basically, I tried to grab as much of their land every time they declared war before surrendering (to prevent them from insta-annexing more provinces than they actually went to war for in the first place). That way, they got one province and I got one or two as well, which at least allowed me to keep some sort of buffer zone intact between us.

 

[Cyneheard]

Nah I'm pretty sure I've hade buffed provinces without using my martial, and I'm also pretty sure there has been more than one province with extra troops in the same realm.

Buildings that give +levy would also do it, especially the walls.

 

[Gladdig_kaga]

How do I limit a faction? I just noticed you can create the gavelkindfaction in a kingdom... xP

 

[richvh]

What factions can be formed are in common/objectives/00_factions.txt. Then there are faction related decisions in decisions/faction_decisions.txt and faction related events in events/plot_events.txt.