MKJ's Map - Discussion Thread

[Norrefeldt]

Faroe islands shouldn't be part of Orkney though, because they stayed part of Norway. If you want to get rid of it, merge it with Iceland or Bergen instead.

It has to be in the same seazone as the province it's merged with, otherwise troops/ships can warp, by entering Iceland from a seazone far southeast from it.

 

[Mad King James]

It has to be in the same seazone as the province it's merged with, otherwise troops/ships can warp, by entering Iceland from a seazone far southeast from it.

Then IMHO either have a "Faeroes" province, or make it decorative PTI or remove it entirely. Scottish Faeroes isn't an option, nor is Orkney remaining Norwegian the whole game.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I don't think they are needed, bishopric or not. They would be a taxvalue = 1 province, that no one, except the AI, wants to own.

 

[Mad King James]

I don't think they are needed, bishopric or not. They would be a taxvalue = 1 province, that no one, except the AI, wants to own.

Faeroes wouldn't be THAT poor, historically those were damn fine fishing and whaling waters, and good land by scandinavian standards. Also in the age of exploration small islands were worth a lot more than they are today, because they were much more accessible by boat, which was the only efficient means of transport. It was still relatively poor, but more along the lines of a tax base of 2 or 3.

 

[G-Klav]

How about merging Orkney/Shetlands with the Highlands and keeping the Faroe Islands? Denmark should have a lot of provinces at the beginning.

 

[Mad King James]

I'd really prefer if Scotland had at least one non-mainland province (I originally had 2). The islands were important parts of Scotland, and a total victory over Scotland should not be possible without also capturing Orkney and the Hebrides, which requires naval action.

Also, Orkney was rather more important than the Faroes.

I wish the Hebrides, was still in, I'd even take a merger of the Hebrides with Man.

 

[unmerged(16460)]

Faeroes wouldn't be THAT poor, historically those were damn fine fishing and whaling waters, and good land by scandinavian standards. Also in the age of exploration small islands were worth a lot more than they are today, because they were much more accessible by boat, which was the only efficient means of transport. It was still relatively poor, but more along the lines of a tax base of 2 or 3.

Cough* cough*! - When you say that it was good land compared to scandinavian standars, I assume that you have never been in either Sweden nor Denmark. On the whaling and fishing buisness you are right. Neither of the Islands had any importance to the kingdom of Denmark-Norway. The thing that bugged the norweigians the most about the king giving orkney away was that he gave the right to tax northern Scotland away with (probably not even executed for centuries by then)

 

[Mad King James]

Cough* cough*! - When you say that it was good land compared to scandinavian standars, I assume that you have never been here. On the whaling and fishing buisness you are right. Neither of the Islands had any importance to the kingdom of Denmark-Norway. The thing that bugged the norweigians the most about the king giving orkney away was that he gave the right to tax northern Scotland away with (probably not even executed for centuries by then)

Well ok, by Norwegian standards, I admit there are parts of Scandinavia that are almost habitable.

 

[unmerged(29318)]

So... what the conclusion...

 

[Toio]

This isn't correct. "Zadar" province in 1419 was Venetian, it wasn't part of Dalmatia. It BECAME part of Dalmatia later on, but that was after Venice conquered Dalmatia from Hungary. Having Zadar as part of Dalmatia is fine for a game that starts at any date other than 1419...

Lavoro is a perfectly acceptable name for the province, just as much as Campania is.

I agree with you in regards to Zadar, but the question was of a merging of provinces by A.Pasha. I was helping him.

It would be very stupid a Zadar and istria merger, when they are so far apart.

Cannot find anything on Lavoro, you do it mean work in Italian.

 

[Norrefeldt]

These are the tax values of some Scandinavian provinces in 1419 AGCEEP. The Faroes could be made to have tax 2 if included, at the most. I think we are being rather generous then.

#Småland
province = {
id = 252
income = 4
manpower = 2
}
#Västergötland
province = {
id = 253
income = 6
manpower = 2 
}
#Svealand
province = {
id = 254
income = 10
manpower = 5 
}
#Bergslagen
province = {
id = 257
income = 8
manpower = 2 
}
#Lappland
province = {
id = 260
income = 1
manpower = 1
}
#Österbotten
province = {
id = 263
income = 1
manpower = 1 
}
#Tavastland
province = {
id = 264
income = 1
manpower = 1 
}
#Nyland
province = {
id = 265
income = 4
manpower = 2 
}
#Savolaks
province = {
id = 273
income = 2
manpower = 1
}
#Västerbotten
province = {
id = 341
income = 1
manpower = 1
}
#Finland
province = {
id = 342
income = 4
manpower = 1 
}
#Gästrikland
province = {
id = 1469
income = 3
manpower = 1 
}

 

[Sute]{h]

So... what the conclusion...

As far as I can tell everybody agrees that the Faroes, Hebrides and Orkney/Shetland didn't play a huge role on European power politics. And I guess if we really need the provinces they would be the first to go, but I think it is a matter of what we gain from removing them. What provinces do we desire to unmerge in return? IMHO these Islands add flavor and I would be sad to see them go unless we really get something important in return elsewhere.

 

[Herr Doctor]

So... what the conclusion...

Well, IMO, it really was unimportant, so even in fact the Orkney-Shetland were only pawned to the Scottish king for 52.000 unpaid florins of dowry, they never were get out of pawn (so Denmark still could buy them, yeah? )… But you can see these issues were raised even 100 years later - during the negotiation over the marriage contract between James VI and Princess Anna of Denmark in 1589. But the Danes even did not care to put this matter to the treaty once again.

I believe that it will be better just to unite Orkney-Shetlands with Highlands, but to put +1 (or 2) tax base to Bergenhus and then to transfer it in 1468-1470 to Scotland (there were two treaties in fact as Shetlands were given two years later for the rest 2.000 florins) to Scotland. On the contrary it is possible to make alternative event, where Denmark (I think that it should be triggered first to Danish player or AI and then to Norway and Scotland) could pay the full sum or to “transfer” the islands to Scotland

 

[Herr Doctor]

The reason I am against the Faroes is also the fact that Denmark already has a lot of poor provinces in Iceland, Greenland, Norway, which slow down its techs greatly making it less defendable against Sweden…

 

[Norrefeldt]

The reason I am against the Faroes is also the fact that Denmark already has a lot of poor provinces in Iceland, Greenland, Norway, which slow down its techs greatly making it less defendable against Sweden…

Indeed. Low tax provinces can be a burden. I have learnt to hate them in MP.

 

[Sute]{h]

Well including the Faroes will leave Denmark with as many poor provinces as on the vanilla map. On the vanilla map Denmark have Iceland and 2 Greenland provinces. On the current suggested map Denmark have Iceland, 1 Greenland province and the Faroes.

Ohh... and I really disagree with hunting poor province on the argument that they were poor. By that standard many other provinces already included could easily be removed (central Russia for instance). There are other arguments for not including the Faroes, but wealth must be one of the worst of them.

 

[Herr Doctor]

I hardly could say that Denmark had behaved itself good enough on the vanilla map… :/ Also Denmark will have on a new map Øsel after the “partition” of the Livonian Order, which will be not rich too.

And the other poor provinces are another case as they are mostly compensated with dozens rich provinces for those nations (Russia, France, Spain, England). The situation here is hardly comparable with Denmark or Portugal (both have only four-five very rich metropolitan provinces and dozens of extremely poor), which seem to be the poorest acted both in vanilla and AGCEEP with old map.

 

[Sute]{h]

Well despite of being "poor" Denmark do manage to take quite a bit of north Germany from time to time. The times when Denmark gets beaten it is usually when they end up fighting Spain or France. Something England. All of these countries should be able to beat Denmark in a war, so I fail to see the problem. Except maybe that the should get into that war in the first place.

Denmark is IMHO already a strong country and the addition of the Faroes, which keeps the number of poor provinces at a constant really doesn't mean that much.

But I guess none of us are going to convince the other.

My question would have to be could we use the province freed by merging the Faroes to a greater effect somewhere else?

 

[Herr Doctor]

But I guess none of us are going to convince the other.

Indeed

My question would have to be could we use the province freed by merging the Faroes to a greater effect somewhere else?

I believe it’s Ferrara, which will be nice to have in Northern Italy? In fact it played a lot more important role in European policy really than these nice northern rocks

Also Staats-Brabant or Julich are seemed nice to have.

 

[Norrefeldt]

The merging of sea zones could be reversed