Mixing outdated tanks with infantry

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JerkyJerry

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The other concern I have always had about light tanks is that as anti-tank weapons evolve and as the years go on I always assumed they would be less and less effective. I had no proof of this mind you. I just assumed as the years went on, the armies got larger, which would mean more anti-tank weapons which would equal less light tanks?
 
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Tarroque

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The other concern I have always had about light tanks is that as anti-tank weapons evolve and as the years go on I always assumed they would be less and less effective. I had no proof of this mind you. I just assumed as the years went on, the armies got larger, which would mean more anti-tank weapons which would equal less light tanks?

Just because the tank is outdated doesn't mean that it has to be light. Besides, if you've already gone to the effort of building the tanks, you may as well wring out as much use from them as you can.
 
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JerkyJerry

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Just because the tank is outdated doesn't mean that it has to be light. Besides, if you've already gone to the effort of building the tanks, you may as well wring out as much use from them as you can.

I thought of that many times but then I think of the men inside the tank. Wouldn't I just be throwing their lives, training, equipment away? I always assumed by upgrading the light to medium I would have kept those tankers (I think that was their names) and all their training which would be cheaper in the long run than training additional tankers. Then again I have no proof of this. It is just the way it makes sense in my head when I'm playing the game.:p
 
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Kovax

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The reality is that "schwerepunkt" tactics assume that the enemy is mainly going to shoot its AT weapons at the big, scary heavy or medium tank up front that's bearing down on them, not the host of little ones in the back that are just waiting their turn until the enemy has revealed its AT gun positions by firing.

As stated, you don't use light tanks against enemy tanks, but if the enemy tries to put infantry in the way of your advance, the light tanks are fast enough to avoid combat and continue on to the objective, or more than sufficiently powerful to break them if they do get in the way, while the heavier tanks either crush anything that the lights leave behind, or deal with enemy armor.

Late war, the increased presence of portable AT weapons made light armor less relevant, and it didn't make much sense to continue building it instead of ramping up medium tank production. Since it was already built, it was still far more effective than not having armor around when and where you needed it. Being vulnerable to AT weapons while in a tank can't have been a lot worse than being vulnerable to every rifle, machinegun, and mortar round while slogging along with nothing more than a canvas jacket for protection.

I'm reminded of an order given to Hungarian tankers in their Italian-made Ansaldo tankettes (bought for training purposes, not combat) at the start of Barbarossa, because the domestically built Toldi light and Turan medium tanks weren't available in sufficient quantity to equip more than a division. "If Soviet tanks are spotted, bail and run." The tankettes had nothing that could hurt a Soviet tank, were too slow to run away, and had barely enough armor to stop a rifle round at medium range, much less a main tank gun round. The crews were far more valuable than the tankettes, but having a mobile machinegun emplacement to deal with enemy infantry entrenchments was a lot better than having infantry run headlong toward enemy machineguns.

In HOI3, you could upgrade armor from light to medium for significantly less cost than building new armor from scratch. In HOI4, where you build "equipment", you will likely end up with some leftover obsolete tanks from your tank divisions. It makes perfect sense to use them in other roles.

There are probably several names for the kind of warfare that doesn't use anything but the best: "brute force", "overbearing", "ham-fisted", etc. Try running an industrialized minor country and see how much you can do with a LOT less. That forces you to learn what can be done with the units you have, not what you wish you had. Can you go toe-to-toe with the Soviets on a narrow front during Barbarossa, and hold your own, or even advance? Can you stall the Germans as Belgium until the French reinforce your lines, and force a trench war instead of Blitzkrieg?

BTW - running Germany without a navy means that Italy and Japan will face the brunt of the combined UK and French fleets at the start of hostilities, and likely suffer badly. In HOI3 Germany games where I built a modest but effective Kriegsmarine, Italy and Japan went ballistic. If I didn't, they essentially got spanked early and did practically nothing all game.
 
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BrotherSurplice

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I love that the equipment system in Hearts of Iron IV will allow us to do this. I'll definitely be using obsolete tanks as poor man's infantry support. Although I would like to be able to use light tanks for reconnaissance as well, like they were in real life.

BTW - running Germany without a navy means that Italy and Japan will face the brunt of the combined UK and French fleets at the start of hostilities, and likely suffer badly. In HOI3 Germany games where I built a modest but effective Kriegsmarine, Italy and Japan went ballistic. If I didn't, they essentially got spanked early and did practically nothing all game.
This. People tend to be contemptuous of German surface fleets in HoI, but there is a great difference between doing what the Germans did in real life and actually building an effective surface fleet. A well put together Kriegsmarine surface fleet gives a German player so many more options than if you hadn't bothered with a navy.
 
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Frosted Vert

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It would be nice to be able to mix battalions later on. The US realized that light armour battalions were not doing their job as part of the Armoured division, so when Armoured Divisions went to 3 (Medium) Tank Battalions, 3 Armoured Infantry Battalions, and 3 Artillery Battalions, a company of light tanks was retained in each Armoured battalion for flank security, recce, and similar tasks.

I may not want whole battalions of M3 Stuarts in 1944, but having a few companies in each Armoured division, besides the Armored Cavalry would be nice.
 

Denkt

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While you can control exactly which equipment a division is allowed to use, light tanks will not do well in an infantry division because it remove the main strength of the light tank, speed. Heavy tanks are not much faster then infantry so they can be combined while give motorised and armor divisions your light tanks.
 
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Tarroque

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I thought of that many times but then I think of the men inside the tank. Wouldn't I just be throwing their lives, training, equipment away? I always assumed by upgrading the light to medium I would have kept those tankers (I think that was their names) and all their training which would be cheaper in the long run than training additional tankers. Then again I have no proof of this. It is just the way it makes sense in my head when I'm playing the game.:p

You'll likely be running into a lot of riflemen if you run into any enemy forces, and there's no telling when or where you will face AT weapons. Furthermore you're doing your best/most expensive tanks no favours by letting the enemy focus fire on them alone. I get what you're saying about the crews though and I hope it'll be possible to keep track of when your tanks become useless.
 

Imminentstorm

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Are the Panzer IIs in question the Ausf L "Luchs"? Because if so I want an entire army of them.... The cutest panzer army ever.
8148427699_527ebee139_z.jpg

(I'll also take a few of that guy in the back right :) )

I am really looking forward to this mechanic. Being able to pull equipment from "obsolete" but still functional stockpiles to rapidly fit out new units instead of waiting to build all the equip from scratch provides interesting strategic possibilities such as the one the OP suggested.
 
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HeilLoki

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Well, it will increase supply demand. So less infrantry can move around in one supply region. If that's not an issue, you could make them kinda "semi motorized".
 
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Kovax

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The Panzer II "Luchs" (Lynx) was a mid-war variant to use the existing production line for a dedicated recon version. The earlier IIF and other models had narrower tracks, a slightly different gun mantle, and a few other minor differences, but were basically similar.

The little number on the right is nice, but the one partly visible on the left might be able to eat it for breakfast and spit out the bones. It appears to be a Jagdpanzer III or IV, essentially similar to the JagdPanther and JagdTiger, except on the Panzer III or IV chassis, with the same long-barrel 75L70 on the IV as on the Panther. The Hetzer, based on the significantly lighter Czech 38(t) chassis, used a 75L48 medium-length gun.

BTW - where was the picture taken?
 

The_Meme_Man

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I'd take the opportunity if I can. After all, just because the tank is outdated, if you are fighting a unit without any AT guns or tanks, and its open terrain, then ANY tank is better than no tank. I'd feel more comfortable with a Panzer II or T-26 (maybe not T-26, something with a bit of speed) supporting me if we knew the most AT the enemy had for the engagement was some bazooka or rifle grenade (which isn't the best AT weapon for long ranged engagements). I mean, the Stewart was used until the end of the war, even when the Chaffees were starting to replace them.
 
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While you can control exactly which equipment a division is allowed to use, light tanks will not do well in an infantry division because it remove the main strength of the light tank, speed. Heavy tanks are not much faster then infantry so they can be combined while give motorised and armor divisions your light tanks.
I think the idea was that you don't use your shiny new light and medium tanks to support infantry, as I think we all agree that that would be a waste, but instead to use your obsolete tanks that are no longer needed in your armoured divisions.
 
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I think the idea was that you don't use your shiny new light and medium tanks to support infantry, as I think we all agree that that would be a waste, but instead to use your obsolete tanks that are no longer needed in your armoured divisions.

Agreed, its better than letting them sit and rust in a stockyard somewhere. If they can provide some value then use them. Its not like we are fighting limited wars or policing actions, this is total war here, all hands on deck and all options on the table.
 
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JerkyJerry

There was never a good war or a bad peace.
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A great explanation Kovax
Thank you