Missionary Strength and Piety
- Thread starter Siu-King**
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Being charitable I think it's an oversight; it was removed because it was reworked into a (theoretically more interesting) event which fires whenever you get a new ruler. But the modifiers that event given don't make up for the loss.
Should add -10% discipline at max legalism too.
Shout out to anyone who gets the reference
Shout out to anyone who gets the reference
The problem comes with Shias and Ibadi who loses Mysticism conquering Sunni land which they need to convert because the dhimmi is only for heatens
I have another problem with legalism and mysticism... It seems everytime I get any event that gives me mysticism also gives something negative where as legalism events seem to have no debuff or at least less harsher.
I always wanted Islam bar to be the same as orthodox bar but with the difference of you pick which bonuses you want... Money or moral if you want to switch you lose all the piety you gained.
Anyhow I hope paradox fixes this hopefully.
I always wanted Islam bar to be the same as orthodox bar but with the difference of you pick which bonuses you want... Money or moral if you want to switch you lose all the piety you gained.
Anyhow I hope paradox fixes this hopefully.
Never thought I'd see the day I'd argue that religion is better than Sunni, but with access to tributaries, much better conversion strength, and usually only 1 less missionary it probably is. I'd still grade Sunni higher w/o tributaries but with them it can easily get more points than Islam can save while clamping down on AE.
Not to mention the decitions allways seems to only increase legalism and has nothing to increase mysticism.
Running the numbers I think I was devaluing tech cost reduction a bit too much. This isn't like innovative vs admin where admin's cost savings are way better (innovative would be a legit competitive adm group pick at -25% tech cost with a -10% admin cost finisher 
).
10% cost reduction is 60/tech, or you save 1200 points in ADM/DIP/MIL by the time you reach imperialism. Coptic/Hindu -10% core cost would need you to core 1200 development by then to match the ADM savings, and this is without considering dhimmi or the school for -10% dev cost to force-dev a few institutions.
It's not exactly so linear as that, since RCC means you core faster too, but considering the 10% applies to DIP/MIL also and in practice you can average >10% reduction I'm not convinced Hindu is necessarily better than Islam on typical runs.
Coptic is still better because you can save more DIP with religious in addition to the 10% core cost reduction, but that's not really an option to Hindu or other non-Christian religions.
Edited above: removed extra 0.
).10% cost reduction is 60/tech, or you save 1200 points in ADM/DIP/MIL by the time you reach imperialism. Coptic/Hindu -10% core cost would need you to core 1200 development by then to match the ADM savings, and this is without considering dhimmi or the school for -10% dev cost to force-dev a few institutions.
It's not exactly so linear as that, since RCC means you core faster too, but considering the 10% applies to DIP/MIL also and in practice you can average >10% reduction I'm not convinced Hindu is necessarily better than Islam on typical runs.
Coptic is still better because you can save more DIP with religious in addition to the 10% core cost reduction, but that's not really an option to Hindu or other non-Christian religions.
Edited above: removed extra 0.
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You mean 12000 admin points worth of development, not 12000 development. 1 development is not 1 admin worth of development (and you know it pretty well, so I guess it's a typo). You just need to core 1200 dev for it to be better which is why it's vastly superior. Or in other words 1% RCC is better than 1% discount to tech so long as you conquer 60 development every time you tech (a mere 15 dev every year).
And not to mention RCC saves admin points and not all types of points. When you look at the figures, it's insane how good RCC is and how bad tech cost reduction is. From a WC perspective, Admin would still save more admin points than Innovative if it was -25% tech cost for Innovative and -10% RCC for Admin instead of the opposite...
Yes that's a typo unless I get to carry an extra 0 on the tech cost reduction too ^_^. I think anybody would take -100% tech cost though.
Still between ADM/DIP the grabbing 1200+ development worth in both categories is not trivial. I see elite players having ~2k development by 1600 as minors, but most players don't reach this and it's not necessary to 1-tag.
That tells me that 10% RCC is better than 10% tech cost (which doesn't match 1600 RCC until 1680ish), but Islam isn't done because it gets Dhimmi and -10% dev too. Since the Islam savings are more front-loaded (most development is acquired late) I'm not prepared to crown Hindu over it just yet among the humanist religions.
From a WC perspective, Admin would still save more admin points than Innovative if it was -25% tech cost for Innovative and -10% RCC for Admin instead of the opposite...
You also do get cheaper DIP and that does generate cores, but 10% RCC still wins (just less so). Even so I'd at least consider innovative if it got a massive tech cost reduction boost since the 50% cost reduction for estate adviser stacks with innovative's 25% and would let you run > +3 advisers pretty early. It'd be nice to pick some different stuff sometimes.
They are people who ignorantly think that they know what happened in history after the wave of nationalism changed their consciousness and consequently created an alternative history in which is what you said.
Most orthodox populations of Balkans were more accepting of Turks' rule than Catholic rule. If you seek a solid example, see what catholic crusaders did to "First among equals" Patriarch of Constantinople after the sack of Constantinople vs what Mehmet II did. Also in what world, only a small portion of Serbians (Bosniaks) and part of Albanians would convert to Islam if Empire actually forced conversion considering many Christian Nations lived under their rule for centuries (Armenians, Greeks etc).
Edit: I am not saying that dhimmi (Christians and Jews) was equal to Muslims in Ottoman Empire or that Ottomans were "tolerant" or "liberal" by today's standards. I am simply saying that historically, Turkish Empire didn't try to force-convert people of Abrahamic Religions but tax them more for protection of their lives, properties and rights to practice their religion with a protected second class citizen status which are more than denominational or religious minorities (exemplified by Sephardic Jews fleeing to Ottoman State from Spanish Inquisition on invitation of the Turkish Sultan) could ever get in Catholic Europe until the Age of Enlightenment.
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Maybe you should read up about how Zoroastrianism was destroyed in Persia? Many fire temples were destroyed or burned... Writing in middle Persian was banned( language that was used for holy text of Zoroastrianism). Taxes on non-Muslims while job opportunity and rewards for Muslims.
If you read what I posted again, you would see that I specifically said dhimmi. Christians and Jews are dhimmis, not Zoroastrians. Also "job opportunity and rewards"(not really - no peasant got any kind of reward during that age regardless of their religion) for Muslims are in line with protected second class citizen status of Christians and Jews in Turkish Empire which was, again, more than what religious and denominational minorities could get in Europe until the Age of Enlightenment.
PS: Dhimmi means protected person. Except Muslim States of India, it covered Christians and Jews who are accepted as the believers of the same god with corrupted theological understanding&expression that was stemmed from human-made changes to those religions according to Islam. In Islam, it's believed that god sent Islam as the last religion because original texts of Torah and Bible were altered - not kept as god intended them to be. Zoroastrians does not fit in "people of the book" definition by any means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
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I don't understand by your ow
is a historical[1]term referring to non-Muslim citizens of an Islamic state.[1] The word literally means "protected person." Zoroastrian we're indeed dhimmi due to them being monotheistic like any major religion and had to pay taxes for protection the difference is that one empire was ruled by tolerance and other wasn't... The Ottoman empire is just one of the kind even in Persia Sunni Muslims were persecuted and killed like... orthodox got wiped by Catholics. No offense but you seem to cherry pick alot of your facts. Allow me to enlighten you about how sunnis were eradicated by ismael I of Persia. According to Daniel W. Brown, Isma'il was "the most successful and intolerant Shi'i ruler since the fall of the fatamids". It appears that he aimed for complete destruction of Sunni Islam, and he largely achieved that goal in the lands over which he ruled. His hatred of the Sunnis knew no bounds, and his persecution of them was ruthless.
By the way I am Muslim myself just want to bring other sides of Islam to table. Although I agree Ottomans were tolerant compared to most europeans at the time, you or I cannot close our eyes to what was going on with Islam in other regions beside Ottoman held territory.
Just 1 more additional info for you:After the Muslim conquest of Persia, Zoroastrians were given dhimmi status and subjected to persecutions; discrimination and harassment began in the form of sparse violence.[10] Those paying Jizya were subjected to insults and humiliation by the tax collectors.[11][12][13] Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam.[11]
Honestly the Islam bonuses are pretty garbage, in every game I've played I've either converted to Coptic + Religious or Hindu + Humanist. Islam kinda feels like a half-way religion and isn't particularly good at either. I guess it has the Dhimmi???