Missing Nationality

[The Valkyrier]

The question of minorities is not "how much of an effect did the minorities actually have" - because in the case of Scots and Welsh, the differences faded drastically in Victorian times.

The question is: "how much of an effect would you see when everything goes to hell?"

There is a distinct line between nation states and multi-cultural empires in history. When drought and famine, political crisis, prolonged wars etc happen to a nation state, during the time period Victoria covers, the population overthrows the government, switches king for president, conservatives for communists or fascists. When it happens to a multi-ethnical/religious/cultural society there is secession and separatism.

Sure, you can probably find an exception, but in a vast majority of the unrest and revolts of this era the golden rule is as described. Spain, France, Italy, Germany and Russia are examples of such nation states where revolutions resulted in change of government, not secession. That being despite the fact that both Italy and Germany went through their infancy during this period.
In Austria, OE and USA revolts resulted in separatism. With the nationalism of the Victorian era it is very hard to justify a "what if" where Galicia separates from Spain. The only revolt in Galicia during the whole 19th Century was the Solís Uprising, and that was rather an uprising in Galicia than a Galician uprising, the leader of it being a colonel in the army, without separatist intentions who indeed flirted with the Galician independence movement, but was never a part of it.

So why Galician culture? Still don't see any reason for it. There is nothing suggesting Spain would dissolve during any of the conflicts during the period. Spain survived as a state through the Carlist wars, revolutions and counter-revolutions, political chaos and republican stagnation during the 1840s-1870s, and the eventual restoration to monarchy. During the 19th century Spain went from having been one of the European superpowers, matched only by Austria, France and Britain, to, at the dawn of the 1900s, having become one of western Europe's poorest and most backward countries. Still there was never any organized separatist movement (except the basque) during this whole time.

This is why I think cultures in nation states should be kept at a minimum. If a player decides to play an authoritarian dictatorship or absolute monarchy as Spain or any other nation state he should not be getting rebels who want independence, he should instead be getting monarchists, republicans, liberals and socialists.

 

[unmerged(37556)]

Well, I had a lot of LOLS with google translator guys. I think that, if all cultures cannot be depicted, at least make that depiction more equalitarian. The final goal is to make a great game as full of flavor as possible.

I didnt expect this thread would generate such a discussion, but could be interesting to create an specific thread to chat about the culture topic.

Just for curiosity, Galicians never claimed independence since many centuries ago, because the influence of their nation-state and ruler classes declined over time too gradually to generate an "defensive self consciousness", specially since the 16th century.
The core of galician culture is loyalty and caution, so their revoltness is very low. Instead, they have always managed to carry a deep nationalistic feeling, but very well concealed, mainly because of practical reasons.

However, there was an important military uprise in Galicia in the mid 19th century, commanded by Gral. Solís, against the derogation of the Galician Kingdom and its splitting into four provinces. The result was the defeat of Solís, and the execution of the leaders, who are called nowadays Mártires de Carral.

This is a map showing the locations of all Galician Centres around the world, which act as local embassies and cultural centres and are still managed by descendants of galician emigrants:

Just a quick comment on those who are making sarcastic and otherwise useless comments: Give the guy/girl/potato a break! Can someone ask for representation as a CULTURAL MINORITY without being called an "independantist" or nationalist anymore? Oi!

Shackel is right, being less in number doesnt mean you dont have the right to exist.
In absolute terms, all of your nations are very small compared to others. Britain, for example, would be a tiny minority with no cultural rights if it was within Chinas´ boundaries. Be respectful in this kind of questions.

 

[The Valkyrier]

I wrote: "There is simply no justification for splitting "Spanish" into anything more specific, if not because the cultural flavors of Spain were so similar, then only because they got along too well for there to be any antagonism, and thus any need for separation in the game."

Seleuco wrote: "The core of galician culture is loyalty and caution, so their revoltness is very low. Instead, they have always managed to carry a deep nationalistic feeling, but very well concealed, mainly because of practical reasons."

It seems we aren't disagreeing on the core issue, only the conclusion. I'm curious to why you would want to see a culture in the game that is "very well concealed because of practical reasons" unless it is a purely personal preference. If what you wrote is enough to justify adding this or that culture to the game, then I will be the first to vote for Freemasons in London. I'm sure you see why, to the rest of us who are going to play this game, it makes no sense at all to have Galician as a culture in the game.

There is a reason Paradox has the most awesome modding community in the world; anyone can mod their games! As soon as the game is released you'll see me posting prints of my home-crafted Byzantine Empire. Does that mean I would want the option to restore Byz in vanilla? Never!

 

[unmerged(37556)]

I'm curious to why you would want to see a culture in the game that is "very well concealed because of practical reasons" unless it is a purely personal preference.

Its easy to say if you havent ever experienced it, Sweden has been a too peaceful region for the last 400 years to know that kind of things.

What about Fear, Cultural Banning , Social Exclussion and the unability to socially promote if you stay loyal to your native culture? are these enough reasons to make a personal choice from your point of view?

Concealing is not a choice, but a way of surviving long time without any kind of assets.

 

[The Valkyrier]

Its easy to say if you havent ever experienced it, Sweden has been a too peaceful region for the last 400 years to know that kind of things.

What about Fear, Cultural Banning , Social Exclussion and the unability to socially promote if you stay loyal to your native culture? are these enough reasons to make a personal choice from your point of view?

Concealing is not a choice, but a way of surviving long time without any kind of assets.

My point is that the high level of cultural conformity in 19th century Spain does not justify cultural division in a game that is supposed to be a historical sandbox. Spain was one of the most, maybe even the most, troubled county in western Europe during the 19th and early 20th century. There was plenty of opportunity for separatism to rise and grow, but it didn't. Why is less important, but Spain had been a de-facto nation state for a very long time in 1836, and as I've already written the national ideal of this era was so strong that separation from the "father nation" was as good as impossible. In 1836 Galicia was merely a province of the Spanish nation, like other historical regions, such as Andalusia, Catalonia and Leon. The separatist movement did not come out of hibernation until after the end of the games timeline. We can go on debating this for an eternity, but you haven't showed a single piece of evidence to support your claims.

For example "Fear, Cultural Banning , Social Exclussion and the unability to socially promote":
Unless I have missed a revolutionary Dev Diary, fear is not a concept that is included in the game. The leader of the Galician regionalist revolt of 1846 was a Colonel in the Spanish Army leads me to believe it was possible for Galicians to reach high positions in the spanish bureaucracy. A quick search on Wikipedia further confirmed this, as it gave me a president and "the father of Spanish socialism", both Galician. As for "social exclusion" I also found some very influential cultural impacts originating from Galicia, most important of them probably being Ramón del Valle-Inclán, whose works I actually came across at uni. Nowhere can I find any sources supporting your claims. Maybe before or after the Victorian era what you say is true, but the corrupt government of 19th century Spain didn't seem to oppress Galicians more than anyone else.

The thing about Sweden... Not even gonna comment on it as I'm not from there.

 

[Tormodius]

Dude, chill out, it's just a game. Why criticize so much his idea?

Omg!
Hello, I come from another planet. on my home planet we got 500.000.000.000 different cultures, why arent they all represented in the game?

 

[Andrelvis]

Omg!
Hello, I come from another planet. on my home planet we got 500.000.000.000 different cultures, why arent they all represented in the game?

Because your home planet isn't represented in the game

It's just that I find it funny when people who cared enough to post and even write a sizable text tell others that they shouldn't care so much and it's just a game (with due explanations of why this is the case)

 

[Tormodius]

Aye, which is what i agree with.

 

[unmerged(37556)]

My point is that the high level of cultural conformity in 19th century Spain does not justify cultural division in a game that is supposed to be a historical sandbox. Spain was one of the most, maybe even the most, troubled county in western Europe during the 19th and early 20th century. There was plenty of opportunity for separatism to rise and grow, but it didn't. Why is less important, but Spain had been a de-facto nation state for a very long time in 1836, and as I've already written the national ideal of this era was so strong that separation from the "father nation" was as good as impossible. In 1836 Galicia was merely a province of the Spanish nation, like other historical regions, such as Andalusia, Catalonia and Leon. The separatist movement did not come out of hibernation until after the end of the games timeline. We can go on debating this for an eternity, but you haven't showed a single piece of evidence to support your claims.

For example "Fear, Cultural Banning , Social Exclussion and the unability to socially promote":
Unless I have missed a revolutionary Dev Diary, fear is not a concept that is included in the game. The leader of the Galician regionalist revolt of 1846 was a Colonel in the Spanish Army leads me to believe it was possible for Galicians to reach high positions in the spanish bureaucracy. A quick search on Wikipedia further confirmed this, as it gave me a president and "the father of Spanish socialism", both Galician. As for "social exclusion" I also found some very influential cultural impacts originating from Galicia, most important of them probably being Ramón del Valle-Inclán, whose works I actually came across at uni. Nowhere can I find any sources supporting your claims. Maybe before or after the Victorian era what you say is true, but the corrupt government of 19th century Spain didn't seem to oppress Galicians more than anyone else.

The thing about Sweden... Not even gonna comment on it as I'm not from there.

When national people are mostly illiterate, and the ruler classes dont share your own culture it is hard to develop any kind of nationalist movement. Don´t you think so?

All the remarkable people you have mentioned had to forsake their galician culture in order to promote (thats what I mean with "practical reasons"), because any use of their tongue or national symbols was a reason for punishment and a terrible discredit.

Universal writers of galician origin, like Cervantes, Valle-Inclán or Camilo José Cela, never had access to an education or information regarding their own country´s history and tongue, so their only choice was to defect to Madrid and publically regard their motherland as a dark spot in their lifes.

The military couldnt wear galician symbols, nor use the galician language. The uprising of Solís was just to demand a better status for Galicia and (literally) not to be treated like a colony from Madrid.

Maybe if you think about Stalin, who was of Georgian origin, you can understand that. If someone rememinded him his Georgian origins, he was a dead man for sure.
Dictator Franco (who was galician) prosecuted his motherland´s culture during his lifetime like Stalin, and of course, never was heard a word in galician... until he was near dead and semi-unconscious, when he whispered some rude words in that language.

 

[Tormodius]

Universal writers of galician origin, like Cervantes, Valle-Inclán or Camilo José Cela, never had access to an education or information regarding their own country´s history and tongue, so their only choice was to defect to Madrid and publically regard their motherland as a dark spot in their lifes.

Well this might be caused by centralization and "civilization" reasons too?
Not very unlike our own comedy writer Ludvig Holberg (1684-1754 )
He was born in the same town as me, very far from the "civilized" world. That means it's very nice place close to nature and countryside etc. Mostly farmers and fishermen, but not very much to do for the educated few. No great facilities or any way for POPs to evolve ... it was just a province. Not even with any noticable separatist sentiment, before 1814.

While there was royal union with Denmark and the only University was in Copenhagen, Holberg moved off to Copenhagen to study and of course he then had to write in danish language. There wasn't even a written language in Norway at the time. So he kinda abandoned his roots, but wrote sometimes funny stuff about his home town. Best writer Norway ever produced IMO, but ofc also the Danish people claim to be their man haha! cuz he wrote in Danish, but Danish-Norwegian was the dominant typing language in Norway, and still is today. Also we had some great composers in the late Victorian era but they had to go all the way to Paris, Rome and Venice in order to get paid work and had their successes there. Big cities attracts! Norway never was, or is, a place to stay if you wanna do something great

The military couldnt wear galician symbols, nor use the galician language. The uprising of Solís was just to demand a better status for Galicia and (literally) not to be treated like a colony from Madrid.

This is very different from the way germans did it. There you had them from all kinda regions or states with various symbols, under the dominance of prussia. After 1872 at least. However Prussians did not forbid the other parts to use their symbols. That would be a stupid thing to do against a german state. As long as their aristocrats were in command and prussians at the top level the King would be happy, and their armies came dragging with alot of flags with all kinda symbols. In the game i think they are only represented as North-german and South-german. That could be modded too, if it doesn't make the game engine act weird. I hope they made the game so modding this would be painless

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

just as I can understand why some Mormons were offended by Vicky 1 that their religion was listed as "pagan".

I have to laugh at that one. They should look at the bright side, that just makes it easier to conquer half the United States and form a Great Lakes Empire. It actually makes sense, considering that they believe in many and ever-changing deities. But then again, its far from the only Christian group with polytheistic overtones.

It would nice to be able to include all cultures, subcultures, and properly categorize religions, etc. Maybe someone could make a mod for this.

 

[The Valkyrier]

When national people are mostly illiterate, and the ruler classes dont share your own culture it is hard to develop any kind of nationalist movement. Don´t you think so?

Ever heard of the revolts against Austrian and Ottoman rule in the Balkans during the 19th century? The polish revolts of the 1830s and 1860s against Russia? The revolutions of 1848? The Romanian war of Independence?

There were no separatist movements in Spain during the whole 19th Century. No matter what explanation you choose, the fact remains that there was ample opportunity for separatists to take advantage of the political chaos and civil wars of 19th century Spain. Yet that did not happen. You keep saying that the galician people was oppressed by the central government (a claim which by the way I haven't been able to find a single piece of supporting evidence for), and yet there were never any uprisings. Either you have been misinformed about the extent or severity of oppression, or the Galicians were the most cowardly people on the planet.
In any case, if I were to oppress the people of Galicia when I play the game... why should there be Galician regionalists rising in anger? It didn't happen historically even when it was possible for several decades. Again, this shows there is no reason to split the Spanish culture. Oppression and injustice in Spain has always resulted in the overthrowal of government, not in secession, the only exception being the Basque.

The military couldnt wear galician symbols, nor use the galician language. The uprising of Solís was just to demand a better status for Galicia and (literally) not to be treated like a colony from Madrid.

There has never been a single nation-state in the history of the world that has allowed their soldiers to wear any other symbols or colors than that of the country they serve. Someone later wrote that "in Germany the Prussians allowed the other countries to wear their symbols". Well that was because Germany was a federal monarchy, and not a nation-state per see.

 

[naggy]

There has never been a single nation-state in the history of the world that has allowed their soldiers to wear any other symbols or colors than that of the country they serve. Someone later wrote that "in Germany the Prussians allowed the other countries to wear their symbols". Well that was because Germany was a federal monarchy, and not a nation-state per see.

Not true. British regiments often used local symbols on their regimental flags, which flew with the national colors.

 

[The Valkyrier]

Not true. British regiments often used local symbols on their regimental flags, which flew with the national colors.

First of all Britain is not a nation-state. Secondly I was talking about regional symbols.

 

[CmdKewin]

Imagine how Italy would turn out if you where to "culturally" divide it based on dialects only?...

 

[naggy]

First of all Britain is not a nation-state. Secondly I was talking about regional symbols.

In Vicky terms, however, they are.

 

[elboludox]

It's not dialects only, I'm living in Spain and I understand his point, it's fairly simple: Catalans are Spanish, even though they speak a different language, which derives from the Oc brach of French, but nevertheless they are not French. Gallegos are not Portuguese, they are Spanish, and what the OP is stating is that if Catalans are represented, then Gallegos should also be represented and if not make them all Spanish and leave only the Basques. If you research a little bit you'll find out that Catalans were never independant, they were always part of the crown of Aragon.
Another thing to take into acount is that after the Spanish Succession war there was a strong centralisation and the Aragonese institutions were turned down in favour of the castilian ones.
Besides Galicia was pretty much isolated from the rest of Spain, remaining mainly rural subsistance economy, while the Catalan lands had a lot of contact with Castille.

On the same topic I recall Chile having Andean culture as Peru and Bolivia, While Argentina had Platinean as Uruguay and Paraguay. Seems wrong to me.

 

[The Valkyrier]

In Vicky terms, however, they are.

Meaning what?
If I remember correctly you could release both Scotland and Wales as satellites in V1. Also, the discussion about regional symbols has nothing to do with the game.

 

[Negru Voda]

this thread needs to be closed.. where the heck is a mod?


P.S: I never realized the British Isles are not properly represented culturally (as I never played Britain), that is insane.. how did King stand for that?

 

[OHgamer]

Thread closed, it is not serving any purpose to discuss the nature of game mechanics, or even proposals on what modders might consider doing. Those of you who wish to discuss the theories of the formation of national identities can take that discussion to the OT or history forums where they really rightfully belong.

As has been stated above, if you aren't happy with the inclusion or exclusion of any sort of cultural or religious community in the game it will be a simple thing to mod it in for your own personal use. Paradox has developed its base list and at this late date it is not going to reopen the can of worms and revise it. End of discussion.