Missile Size Differentiation

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Cordane

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Currently the only differences between the different sizes for any given missile launcher have been range and damage. However, the other two weapon types typically are more tailored for their preferred foes, i.e., Small versus Corvettes, Medium versus Destroyers, and Large versus Cruisers and Battleships. Usually, as it increases in size, the weapon has less Tracking (as their targets have less Evasion), it has slightly lower Accuracy, and it has higher penetration or bonus damage versus its preferred defense. This is not universal in all areas, e.g., Disruptor-type weapons keep the same +200% Shield Damage across all three sizes, but they still drop in Tracking and Accuracy.

Should missiles have a similar size differentiation? I could get behind at least the Tracking fall-off, although I would look at keeping the higher ceiling for Tracking (70% / 40% / 15%). One of the big complaints, with regard to point defense, has been that larger missiles are no harder for a point defense weapon to kill than the smallest. I would recommend multiplying the Hit Points for Medium weapons by 2 and Large by 4. I would also advocate having flight speeds having some +/- differences as well: if speeds are still in the ~5 range, I would want Small to be +1 to that and Large to be -1. My preference would be increasing speed by 100%, so a base 10 speed would have Small at +2 and Large at -2. (I’ve seen calls for 200% increase instead from the current 5 base (to 15), which would have Small and Large at +3/-3, and I would also like to see speed increase along with tech level (1-3 per).)

Depending on whether you feel that the above increases in missile hit points are actually a correction for a lack in survivability instead of just a new differentiation, missiles probably still could use some additional work in this area. Basic missiles could take their cues from Autocannons, starting with no versus-bonus for Small launchers, but then modest bonuses for Medium and Large (again, probably versus Armor). I'm interested in other takes on what might be done to differentiate between sizes of missiles.

Slightly off topic, but if they can’t get Swarmer/Whirlwind Missiles to draw PD fire with their 200% Evasion (i.e., tank PD), I would recommend changing them to either fire a burst of 5 or so lower power missiles that combine to a touch more damage than the current setup’s single shot (e.g., 5x 2-3 vs. 8-12 for Swarmer), or to shoot individual lower power missiles at a high rate of fire (0.40-0.50 days cooldown vs. 2.10). That would probably provide the tanking effect, and any lost damage potential from actually getting hit by PD is minimal (could move damage per or number of missiles/rate of fire up to balance further).
 

Cordane

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I'm just re-reading this, and I don't think I made it clear on my suggestion on Swarmer/Whirlwind Missiles: the lower power missiles are a lot like current Tier 1 or so basic missiles, just smaller, with no extraordinary ability to avoid PD fire. The point is to force the opponent to waste full-power PD shots on missiles that are basically useless individually - if you can double or triple the number of missile targets in a given area, regular missiles get through more often. Sorry for any confusion.
 

The Founder

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I am not convinced this Model of Missiles and PD has ever worked in any game that used it:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-missile-and-pd-never-work-out.980433/

The main issues with Missiles DPS are actually overkill and traveltimes (wich is compounded by missiles vanishing with thier launching ships death). Wiz Indicated "some buff" to missiles with banks. No idea if that is just damage/traveltime or something else.
I am certain Missiles/PD will have to be redone from the ground up or maybe even removed entirely (if they are not balanceable), but Paradox surprised me before.

Right now missiles have exactly one role - countering Corvette dodge. That is the one thing they always did since 1.0. Them having awesome tracking in the bigger slots is a feature. One thing to consider with large missiles is that lot's of missiles are bad for performance. Indeed only 50 missiles will be drawn on screen (the rest just moves invisible). So they want to incentivise you putting large missiles on your ships.
 

Cordane

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I asked about the above situations in this way because I got tired of writing out the entire dissertation every time I made a post, but let me link them for you so you'll know where I'm coming from. I'll also look to add them to a signature.
Right now missiles have exactly one role - countering Corvette dodge. That is the one thing they always did since 1.0. Them having awesome tracking in the bigger slots is a feature. One thing to consider with large missiles is that lot's of missiles are bad for performance. Indeed only 50 missiles will be drawn on screen (the rest just moves invisible). So they want to incentivise you putting large missiles on your ships.
See, I consider that to be a fallacy, a weak rationalization for why Stellaris has missiles set up the way they do. The different sizes of the other weapons give you options against each of the different ship sizes, but missiles can only be useful against Corvettes? Not only that but Corvettes with no shields or armor.

Your suggestion that they're actually incentivizing the use of Large missiles is ludicrous, as right now there is no advantage in an environment that includes point defense to sending a more limited number of targets against it when each target is just as easy to destroy, regardless of size. (Wait, are you saying that Paradox's grand solution to large battle lag is getting players to switch from Small missiles to Large missiles? Brilliant!)

I'll consider your statement to be more along the lines of "missiles should be BETTER (not GOOD ONLY) at defeating high Evasion targets", scale the drop-off to 70%/50%/30%, and leave it at that.
 

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See, I consider that to be a fallacy, a weak rationalization for why Stellaris has missiles set up the way they do. The different sizes of the other weapons give you options against each of the different ship sizes, but missiles can only be useful against Corvettes? Not only that but Corvettes with no shields or armor.
Corvettes carry marginal armor. And do not get a lot of HP from shields, wich also need a lot of utiltiy slots. Evasion is the primary defense of a Corvette. Always was. Propably will be.

Your suggestion that they're actually incentivizing the use of Large missiles is ludicrous, as right now there is no advantage in an environment that includes point defense to sending a more limited number of targets against it when each target is just as easy to destroy, regardless of size. (Wait, are you saying that Paradox's grand solution to large battle lag is getting players to switch from Small missiles to Large missiles? Brilliant!)
That large missiles do not have more PD resistance is a implementation bug. We will see if they fix it or rework the missiles/PD entirely. Some buffs have to missiles have been indicated by Wiz for 1.5.

Yes, simulating and drawing fewer and larger missiles is beneficial for performance. Each missiles needs same computations, if it is small or large slot. You do not need to be a programmer to understand that.

I never said it "would solve combat lag". You are just being a dick for no real reason.
 

Cordane

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I never said it "would solve combat lag".

One thing to consider with large missiles is that lot's of missiles are bad for performance. Indeed only 50 missiles will be drawn on screen (the rest just moves invisible). So they want to incentivise you putting large missiles on your ships.
Saying that they want to incentivize a certain behavior (going with fewer Large missiles) immediately after saying that lots of missiles was bad for performances - I would say it's pretty clear what you said. There certainly is no extraordinary incentive for the player's empire for using Large missiles over a larger quantity of smaller missiles. Right now, any player disinterest in using Small missiles (and actually all non-torpedoes) has almost nothing to do with any graphical performance hit they bring, and nearly everything to do with their woeful tactical performance.

That large missiles do not have more PD resistance is a implementation bug.
From what implementation point are you saying this "implementation bug" is from? If I remember correctly, we've had missiles with hit points, going against point defense for quite a while now, like since the beginning. Seems odd that this "bug" continues to persist after being reported for so long...

Corvettes carry marginal armor. And do not get a lot of HP from shields, wich also need a lot of utiltiy slots. Evasion is the primary defense of a Corvette. Always was. Propably will be.
It's interesting that you bring up how Corvettes use Evasion as their primary defense - my understanding was that Tracking was used to counter Evasion, and that almost ALL of the other Small weapons had just short of the same Tracking as all of the missiles, almost like the game was designed to have Small weapons deal with Corvettes. There was a point in the game's history where swarms of Corvettes ruled the battlescape, where a class of weapons that exceled against that type of threat might have been useful, but that's not where the current game balance lies.
 

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Saying that they want to incentivize a certain behavior (going with fewer Large missiles) immediately after saying that lots of missiles was bad for performances - I would say it's pretty clear what you said.
I said lots of missiles are bad for performance. The conclusion that "they cause the combat lag" is not understandable from that.
After all nobody uses them (even AI only rarely), so how could they cause combat lag in there here and now?

From what implementation point are you saying this "implementation bug" is from? If I remember correctly, we've had missiles with hit points, going against point defense for quite a while now, like since the beginning. Seems odd that this "bug" continues to persist after being reported for so long...
If it is such a trivial fix, you are free to make it via mods. And see just wich unintended consequences and balancing nightmares that results in. It is a natural result of this model of PD, Missiles and Fighters. Paradox knows already, wich is why they avoid it.

As I said before, it propably requires a complete rework to make them work as intended/give them a place among the weaponsystems on all techlevels. In either case not the kind of work they can afford now, with a Update/Addon Focussed far away from Warfare.
Something will happen (as Wiz said), but no major rework. Maybe they finally buff larger/higher Tier missiles HP in correlation to PD damage. Or maybe something totally different.

It's interesting that you bring up how Corvettes use Evasion as their primary defense - my understanding was that Tracking was used to counter Evasion, and that almost ALL of the other Small weapons had just short of the same Tracking as all of the missiles, almost like the game was designed to have Small weapons deal with Corvettes.
Yes, small slots are good against corvettes, because of the higher accuracy and tracking compared to larger slots.
Wich weapons have the best values here? Missiles. Arc Emitters. Either got 100% in both. Every other weapon - even small slots Autocannons (2nd best in both) - is oh so slightly inferior in those regards to Missiles/Arcs. Almost as if missiles were designed to kill corvettes regardless of size of the slot. Intentionally. And Arcs were designed to just counter any defense.
Isn't it funny that when tracking was added, Missiles lost thier "can not be evaded" tag. Only to get 100% Accuracy and Tracking for the same end result?

Btb, I also predicted the Armor Piercing buff for Torpedoes.
And that Kinetics are inteded shield killers (back before they got a clearly stated buff).
I was close with the Lance Spam Solution.
So my trackrecord as far as Weapon Changes is good.
 

Cordane

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What are your thoughts on giving missiles a anti armour and a anti shield option atm?
After any fixes to their host of issues, I would definitely love to see some variation in armor penetration or bonus shield damage. I'll admit I'm at a loss, trying to keep all of the fixes needed in mind, to know whether basic missiles would still need anything beyond the above size-related bonuses to make them balanced (versus just working). I also wouldn't mind if they'd put the energy torpedoes back under missiles.
 

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I said lots of missiles are bad for performance. The conclusion that "they cause the combat lag" is not understandable from that.
After all nobody uses them (even AI only rarely), so how could they cause combat lag in there here and now?
Certainly they are not THE source of the overwhelming majority of lag (the D-word that shall not be spoken here, lest we be ban-merged into the dust bin thread), especially considering the sad truth of the state of missiles in general. But the question is: has Paradox put anything in place in the tactical portions of the game to suggest to players that they should use Large missiles over an equal number of smaller slots? No.
If it is such a trivial fix, you are free to make it via mods. And see just wich unintended consequences and balancing nightmares that results in. It is a natural result of this model of PD, Missiles and Fighters. Paradox knows already, wich is why they avoid it.

As I said before, it propably requires a complete rework to make them work as intended/give them a place among the weaponsystems on all techlevels. In either case not the kind of work they can afford now, with a Update/Addon Focussed far away from Warfare.
Something will happen (as Wiz said), but no major rework. Maybe they finally buff larger/higher Tier missiles HP in correlation to PD damage. Or maybe something totally different.
Never said it was a trivial fix, just as I never thought it was a "bug". Trying to make major changes to any system in a mod leads to incompatibilities with other personal preference mods that people want to play with. I want Paradox to correct the issues with and re-balance missiles in the main game, not expect me or anyone else in the player base to take care of their Gordian knot for them.
Yes, small slots are good against corvettes, because of the higher accuracy and tracking compared to larger slots.
Wich weapons have the best values here? Missiles. Arc Emitters. Either got 100% in both. Every other weapon - even small slots Autocannons (2nd best in both) - is oh so slightly inferior in those regards to Missiles/Arcs. Almost as if missiles were designed to kill corvettes regardless of size of the slot. Intentionally. And Arcs were designed to just counter any defense.
Couple small corrections to that: basic missiles don't get 100% Tracking (they top out at 70%) and you forgot Cloud Lightning as a 100%/100%.

This makes absolutely no sense: players should use their Large slots - the ones that for the other weapon types are actually good against Cruisers and Battleships - to fire missiles at Corvettes and then have nothing at all that works against the big armored and shielded ships? If you want to have a specialized sub-group in missiles that are hyper-tracking to allow big ships to be Corvette-killers, fine - but do not make the primary focus of the entire group of weapons (except torpedoes) into only being useful against one ship.