Minors and technology ahead of time, are they having the desired effect in HoI4?

[Simon_9732495]

Minors have been severly nerfed with the latest version.

I tried Canada lately and could capitulate USA early (yes I know: ), but dealing with resistance was really hard and I got not that much factories and resources.
In early versions when you capitulate USA with a peace deal as Canada you were as strong as the USA from that moment or even stronger (not having the US-debuffs.)

 

[mursolini]

There are more or less 2 possible reasonable solutions:
1. Redo tech tree so it is more interwined, thus it will make narrow 2tech rush for entire game strategy impossible.
2. Add in "advanced" factories or resources. Game already supports strategic resources being made by buildings, so just add
3 new "resources", high grade steel, engines, electronics.

Then make advanced equipment cost them. Can't make tanks without high grade steel and engines, no radios without electronics, ex.

 

[vermicious knid]

I think the underlying problem here is that the designers intend that players are able to pick any minor nation and have an enjoyable game...which includes advancing tech. A mod that freezes tech entirely for minors is something I'd be interested in seeing...but you'd obviously have to narrow the definition of "minor". Sweden obviously had technical capacity, for example.

Perhaps freeze tech for the low-tier countries that seldom see play...Latin America, warlords, etc...that are controlled by AI. That would probably speed the game up a touch, so bonus points there. Honestly those countries could probably be even more static...I'm guessing most of them didn't experience an industrial boom or a massive military buildup in the time frame of the game, so why have them advance through focuses at all? Although something that extreme would probably be better as a setup option for a historical campaign.

 

[Farquarsen]

There are more or less 2 possible reasonable solutions:
1. Redo tech tree so it is more interwined, thus it will make narrow 2tech rush for entire game strategy impossible.
2. Add in "advanced" factories or resources. Game already supports strategic resources being made by buildings, so just add
3 new "resources", high grade steel, engines, electronics.

Then make advanced equipment cost them. Can't make tanks without high grade steel and engines, no radios without electronics, ex.

add to this: If a country has modern universities, such as Sweden or Australia, they can research Electronics, advanced industries such as synthetics( rubber, oil), advanced aviation etc. if the country does not have a modern university system, then it can buy (not license and produce) advanced equipment. This still doesn't answer the question as to whom maintains said equipment. Aircraft mechanics do not come cheap, they require a lot of training and proper tools. Modern Warfare is very complicated with a lot of moving parts. WWII is modern warfare.

 

[King Of Heroes]

Maybe it is annoying, but it is historically correct: Japan did fail completely to develop better engines in late war and as a consequence better planes.

The only thing wrong is that minors should be even more strongly debuffed then Japan, since obviously Japan was superior technologically to any minor.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea

Japan was in fact capable of incredible feats of mechanical engineering. Developing a better aircraft engine was not beyond them.

The Turkey-Shoot isn't proof of anything but that Japan's training in late war was lacking and that its fielded aircraft weren't up to par anymore, this was while VT fuses were fielded, the F6F Hellcat was widely deployed and Kamikaze attacks started being used.

That Japan was technologically behind is something that is often said and is really overblown, They had the technology, their destroyed under supplied industry prevented that technology to be effectively applied.

The Nakajima Homare and Mitsubishi Ha-43 were perfectly respectable late war aircraft engines, their reliability issues and lack of non-prototype design usage reflect the strategic situation that they faced and not a lack of technological capability or will to develop.

The Ki-84 Hayate had used the Homare and its capabilities were pretty up there.

The Type-93 Torpedo existed even pre-war and was widely used.

The Sentoku class was developed during the war (Odd that it's there from the start in-game, and there it's rather useless anyway.)

Armor wise they were indeed behind, the Chi-To was at least comparable to a up-gunned Sherman but only 2 were made, the Chi-Nu was closer to the old Sherman, less armor but a better gun.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

To be honest, minor tech progression isn’t that bad. I mean, in real life they would have just bought/been given most of the technology instead of researching it themselves, but close enough Since it’s a fair enough abstraction for adopting a technology (you aren’t necessarily inventing each technology you research from scratch).

However, some of the issues identified come from minors ignoring most research and tech-rushing one particular thing (tanks or aircraft for Hungary, planes fro Romania, armour for South Africa, planes for Australia, mech for Canada, etc). This often means neglecting other relevant techs and focuses and often only works okay unless you’re in MP, in which case your allies cover everything else. It‘s a fair debate how much such countries could have developed if they put all their national efforts towards a particular type of technology, and another debate from a game balance standpoint, but still interesting to consider.

 

[Harin]

The Turkey-Shoot isn't proof of anything but that Japan's training in late war was lacking and that its fielded aircraft weren't up to par anymore, this was while VT fuses were fielded, the F6F Hellcat was widely deployed and Kamikaze attacks started being used.

That Japan was technologically behind is something that is often said and is really overblown, They had the technology, their destroyed under supplied industry prevented that technology to be effectively applied.

The Nakajima Homare and Mitsubishi Ha-43 were perfectly respectable late war aircraft engines, their reliability issues and lack of non-prototype design usage reflect the strategic situation that they faced and not a lack of technological capability or will to develop.

The Ki-84 Hayate had used the Homare and its capabilities were pretty up there.

The Type-93 Torpedo existed even pre-war and was widely used.

The Sentoku class was developed during the war (Odd that it's there from the start in-game, and there it's rather useless anyway.)

Armor wise they were indeed behind, the Chi-To was at least comparable to a up-gunned Sherman but only 2 were made, the Chi-Nu was closer to the old Sherman, less armor but a better gun.

You make a good point about the inability of Japan to realize its ability to produce more advanced tech, due to their destroyed and under supplied industry. Like a poster above said, while the game mechanic may mimic the fact that Japan could not catch up in research, it is not fair to say that Japan did not have the ability and as such should not get a permanent penalty.

If Japan's research could be held back, how can that be added to the game so that any country's research could be held back, just as well? The developers could reduce research speed for ALL NATIONS by the same percentage of factories a nation has damaged and out of use. So if a nation has 100 factories and 10 are being repaired, that nation receives a 10% slow down in research speed.

This way Japan, or any other nation, would not suffer the slower research speed they had historically unless the Allies actually spend the time, effort, and resources to reduce that tech speed. This way the Allies do not get the free cheat against Japan. They must pay for it and it would work on any nation equally as well.

I understand Japan had other disadvantages they were dealing with, like how it only took 300 plus B-29s in a single mission to create firestorms in a city that equaled atomic bomb casualties and destruction, but that is a separate problem to simulate. The above might help with the research issue. Japan was very capable, but if the Allies were willing to pay the price, Japan suffered research and production disadvantages.

 

[mursolini]

add to this: If a country has modern universities, such as Sweden or Australia, they can research Electronics, advanced industries such as synthetics( rubber, oil), advanced aviation etc. if the country does not have a modern university system, then it can buy (not license and produce) advanced equipment. This still doesn't answer the question as to whom maintains said equipment. Aircraft mechanics do not come cheap, they require a lot of training and proper tools. Modern Warfare is very complicated with a lot of moving parts. WWII is modern warfare.

IDK about buying equipment, but under "advanced resources" system your country can import the most important parts of any tech from majors, so if Argentina builds radios importing electronics from US, it is easy to assume that it's mostly assembly of foreign components into locally sourced cases and switches.

You make a good point about the inability of Japan to realize its ability to produce more advanced tech, due to their destroyed and under supplied industry. Like a poster above said, while the game mechanic may mimic the fact that Japan could not catch up in research, it is not fair to say that Japan did not have the ability and as such should not get a permanent penalty.

If Japan's research could be held back, how can that be added to the game so that any country's research could be held back, just as well? The developers could reduce research speed for ALL NATIONS by the same percentage of factories a nation has damaged and out of use. So if a nation has 100 factories and 10 are being repaired, that nation receives a 10% slow down in research speed.

This way Japan, or any other nation, would not suffer the slower research speed they had historically unless the Allies actually spend the time, effort, and resources to reduce that tech speed. This way the Allies do not get the free cheat against Japan. They must pay for it and it would work on any nation equally as well.

I understand Japan had other disadvantages they were dealing with, like how it only took 300 plus B-29s in a single mission to create firestorms in a city that equaled atomic bomb casualties and destruction, but that is a separate problem to simulate. The above might help with the research issue. Japan was very capable, but if the Allies were willing to pay the price, Japan suffered research and production disadvantages.

Historical Japan inability to produce advanced fighters is already well reflected. Good luck building any planes and building up efficiency when your source of aluminum is intercepted by subs and your factories get knocked out, which means no production efficiency.

 

[Harin]

Historical Japan inability to produce advanced fighters is already well reflected. Good luck building any planes and building up efficiency when your source of aluminum is intercepted by subs and your factories get knocked out, which means no production efficiency.

Well said.

I think several posters have it right when they alluded that it was not the Japanese intellect that was at fault, but a lack of resources starving their industry and opportunities to realize some of the advances they were capable of. The strategic bombing and submarine campaign made matters all the worse.

The game absolutely does a good job reflecting Japan's plight, but the way the game does it gives the Allies a free advantage. The game does not require the Allies to actually do the work that is required. Without building a single strategic bomber or submarine, the Allies get an advantage for free.

My suggestion is an effort to make a country pay the sacrifice required to reduce the effectiveness of another country's realization of technical advances.

 

[Col.Klink]

Well said.

I think several posters have it right when they alluded that it was not the Japanese intellect that was at fault, but a lack of resources starving their industry and opportunities to realize some of the advances they were capable of. The strategic bombing and submarine campaign made matters all the worse.

The game absolutely does a good job reflecting Japan's plight, but the way the game does it gives the Allies a free advantage. The game does not require the Allies to actually do the work that is required. Without building a single strategic bomber or submarine, the Allies get an advantage for free.

My suggestion is an effort to make a country pay the sacrifice required to reduce the effectiveness of another country's realization of technical advances.

I think because of this I might have a solution to our tech problem. As a general rule the deployment of advanced technology was done by countries with the resources to do so. In game we see more advanced models require a teensy bit more material to produce than the past model but what if we exaggerated that more?

What if say the Chinese faction were incentivized to stick with it's ww1 era G88 infantry equipment because the material cost of producing enough weapons for everyone with the 1939 model SMG is just more than they have? This is plausible as the problem with the Chinese self loading rifle I posted was that China in 1916 at least needed to import the raw material from Europe. But Mauser rifles.... Well they were so popular because they were practically made out of pot metal, the cheapest possible steel one could get away with. So cheap that case hardening, not full hardening was the norm. (yes I know SMG can be made on just as lose, if not looser standards, just using it as an example of why China licensed Mausers. The updated infantry kits in game not only represent the rifles but mortars ect which may require materials China just didn't have.)

So we think about Japan. Limits in aluminum in aircraft could keep a Japanese player using older models. Instead of using say 3 units of aluminum and 1 of rubber per factory producing planes what if it was 6 and 2 respectively? Those stack REALLY quickly and it makes the superior equipment special, not obligatory.

And that makes infantry equipment interesting again. Currently as Manchukuo I don't even build an army initially, I sit back biding my time till I get infantry gear 1939 at the end of 37 and build my entire army solely with those while still pushing as hard as I can to develop 1942 gear. Making the superior gear really really expensive can allow us to get back to a mode in game more similar to the real war where the overwelming majority of units didn't get the best toys. So most of an enemy line will be the 1936 gear but their attack forces or their reactionary reserve forces will have the 1942 gear.