Minor Suggestions: Austrian Breisgau and Unlawful Territory

Minor Suggestions: Austrian Breisgau and Unlawful Territory

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Hello there! I just wanted to make another smaller thread before I release my thread on Croatia (it takes a while to write up the country's history, even for a simple overview :confused:), just so that I can at least contribute something in the mean time, however small. I'm a bit out of my element as it were when it comes to the HRE, but as somebody who does play in Northern Italy quite a bit, it is something that still must frequently be dealt with in the early game. So, I have two small suggestions for the area which I hope you will take into consideration: one historical- and the other gameplay-based.

Not one to leave music out of my suggestions, here is Johann Sebastian Bach's Suite No. 1 in C Major for you to listen to while you read, to make this thread less bland for you :D

1. Breisgau:

Extremely Gory Map of Further Austria

The Breisgau is represented in-game as a single province currently owned by Baden, however, the actual historical situation would be better-represented another way. Now, rather than write up an elaborate overview of the region's history as I do in my larger threads, I'll simply copy the area's entry in the Encyclopedia Britannica, as it says pretty much everything I meant to say on the subject of its history anyway, and it is also rather short so enjoy! :)

Breisgau, historic region between the Rhine and the Black Forest in southwestern Germany, now in the South Baden district of the Land (state) Baden-Württemberg. It was part of the frontier region of the Roman Empire known as the Agri Decumates; from c. AD 260 it was occupied by the Germanic Alemanni. The Zähringen family was invested with the countship of Breisgau in the early Middle Ages. In 1120 it founded Freiburg im Breisgau as a free market town. In the 14th century the Habsburgs incorporated most of Breisgau into their domains. Albert VI of Austria established the University of Freiburg in 1457. During the Peasants’ Revolt and the Thirty Years’ War, Breisgau was subjected to destructive sieges and was for a time held by the Swedes. The Habsburgs lost Freiburg to Louis XIV of France by the Treaty of Nijmegen in 1679 but regained it by the Treaty of Rijswijk in 1697. By the Treaty of Pressburg in 1805, the county was divided between Württemberg and Baden; the latter acquired full possession of it in 1806.

Now then, with the historical overview out of the way, I'd like to give two suggestions for this province and how to more accurately represent the historical milieu.

1. Austrian Breisgau
This one is fairly obvious given the title of the thread, however I'd still like to list off the points in favour of having Austria own Breisgau in 1444 in case you don't feel like reading the whole historical overview:
  • Austria held a majority of Breisgau, including the major cities, since the 14th century with minor interruptions
  • Baden did not fully control the area until 1806
  • Further Austria (i.e Breisgau and Sundgau) was the original home of the Habsburg dynasty
  • The province was historically a point of contention between the Habsburgs and the French
  • Austria would receive a bit of a development boost without having to add new provinces in Austria proper as it is already an existing province
Considering these factors, I feel it would be reasonable to give the province to Austria in 1444.

2. Badenese Core on Breisgau

Despite Breisgau changing hands from Baden to Austria, it should be noted that Baden would not be a a total loss, as they should still have a core on the province. The reasons for this would be as follows:
  • While Austria controlled a majority of the province, certain areas were under the control of Baden as well
  • It would give another core for Austria to return in a peace deal which would be cheaper than, for example, releasing Tirol
Therefore, having a Badenese core there would help to make the area more interesting in my opinion.

2. Unlawful Territory for Subjects:

Me when Lorraine returns Barrois

So since this next suggestion is purely about gameplay, I won't give some massive spiel on history, but rather will give a scenario I recently ran into:

So recently I had been playing as Savoy, trying to form Italy in my latest run. Through an earlier war against Provence I had been able to acquire Lorraine as a March, and soon decided to try and feed them a few provinces in Swabia so that they might be able to provide more significant manpower when invading the rest of the Italian peninsula. Anyway, the first provinces I sought to grant my new subject were Barrois (still owned by Provence) and Sudgau (owned by Austria). They had already claimed both provinces, and with France as an ally, I was able to successfully invade those lands and take them for Lorraine. The war would prove a costly, narrow victory, but a victory nonetheless.

Then all of a sudden, I see an independent Bar pop up on the screen. After fighting a massive war against Austria in order to give them new land, Lorraine just decided to cave and return t because of Unlawful Territory! So having lost a huge amount of manpower, having pissed off the Emperor, and having incurred a ton of Aggressive Expansion, half of my gains were gone a month after fighting to get them!

Now my suggestion would not be to remove Unlawful Territory - as it is an interesting, albeit sometimes annoying feature - but rather to make it so that subjects cannot return unlawful territory unless their overlord says so. This would function to make vassal-feeding in the HRE more viable and far less annoying, as now the player would be able to control whether or not their subjects listen to the Emperor's demands. Just a QoL change really, but hopefully one that warrants being taken into consideration. :)


Well I hope the ideas presented here were helpful in any way. This is outside my usual area of expertise, so I invite other forumites to contribute any ideas they might have as well. Thank you for reading this slightly shorter treatise on some minor aspects of the HRE, and thank you to anyone who wishes to contribute their own opinions in the discussion. :)

Also tagging @Mingmung to have this added to his European Map Compilation :D
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