Great post Amprolios. I agree completely.
When was locked slider voted out Bob???!???
When was locked slider voted out Bob???!???
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http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6653296&postcount=162
Here, also this post was never responded to one way or the other so I also assumed it was voted out again
Here, also this post was never responded to one way or the other so I also assumed it was voted out again
Dr Bob said:
You surely haven't seen KJ's Austria? Which defeated English navy together with his family in Spain, landed on British Isles and demolished England? That can't be done with unlocked slider.
Ironfist said:
Not in my experience. In fact it leads to static alliances as it limits the number of powers that can operate in the respective theatres. What you have then is continental powers concentrating fully on land affairs and europe and in general doing badly overseas due to lack of naval power while the traditional naval powers as NL, England and Portugal divide up the CoTs and can engage even more in hyperteching and trading....which is bad in oh so many way, imo. So you have 3 naval powers with which to conduct complex diplomacy. Not my cup of tea at all.
Ironfist said:
Eh? I am of an entirely different opinion. Locked increases the amount of nations engaging in seafare. Hence diplomacy becomes more complex as you have to consider more factors & factions. As there are more seapowers there are logicaly more potential allies / enemies. So with an "every man for himself" - approach you would be destined to fail.
As for free giving more diplomatic flexibility : Again EH? Eeeek? M8 just look at the classic seapowers and you will see how rigid things get if you go down this road :
Portugal will be allied to Spain. They always are (with the exception of the crazy PJL-D**iel A - Combo). Portugal simply has no choice in this matter.
NL is strongly dependent on France for the same reasons (France can easily squish their balls over land (Luxemburg)). So again no real choice.
That leaves England. I don´t know about you but I for my part do not regard this as 'complex'.
Ironfist said:
???
Trade is always the true incomedeciding factor in this game. So in a nutshell : every nation that seeks to become rich must trade. productionincome is only a viable option for true juggernauts like the OE and Russia.
Dr Bob said:
Nabukodonosor said:Dr Bob said:Ummm alright, we'll take care of that ardous, difficult job...
Also I'm kinda against DotF being forbidden and the locked land 5 slider....
Agreed, agreed, as far as I'm concerned.
Ummmmmm.... terribly sorry mate. I misunderstood your post. I'm always for banning DotF and for locking land slider.
However, if this is the whole previous discussion about those two rules, and real discussion now started - its ok with me if you open new poll...
If that is the case my votes are up.
First post also updated. Two new rules added. They are in the end of list. They are more of technical nature, but if there are objections - shoot.
Also pls make your consulate thread here . Its time to start making policies, visits, contracts and introduction to what you are playing, and what your policy will be. Pls don't write that here, because as far as I know Abs & co., this thread will have trillion posts, disabling our ability to find what we need for diplomacy, edits etc... Only edits in Edits thread will be edited.
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Csuton1011 haven't confirmed his participation in game or commented roster. So, pls confirm it and vote if you can. If Csutton doesn't confirm his participation to 00.00 Thursday GMT, NL is Fnuco's.
Poll about scenario will be closed in Thursday 00.00 GMT. This is current situation:
1492: Mioz, Dr Bob*, Earendil*, Joohoo, Fnuco*, ...
1453: Iron, Nab*, Alek*, Ampolirios, Quarten, Jorian*, Van Engel, ...
1419: Absolut!
*changed his mind again
Nabukodonosor said:
No I have not seen that, but I can say that is not a normal outcome, locked 5 or not, it was almost certainly due to exceptional circumstances (KJ being a very good player etc )
Dr Bob said:
Well I understand that you argue out of an austrian perspective and you are right in that Austria loses, comparatively speaking, with locked sliders. But Austria is an extreme example. Imo, most countries benefit.
France (who obviously has a normaly untapped potential, namely its superb admirals), Spain (same reason), Sweden (can build truly amazing fleets due to their extreme fleetsupport and often high income), Venice (same reason), Ottoman Empire (they can really rock - insane fleetsupport combined with highincome) and even Brandenburg. BB, if played well, has the potential of becoming a second Sweden. I have often seen it have a big colonial empire.
This leaves extremely landoriented countries such as Austria and Russia.
I agree they are somewhat disadvantaged by locked sliders. But what are 2 countries against the rest?
Discussion about this lasts for a long time.. HoG made books about that and many others were for banning that slider. Johan likes that slider...
Arguments are many;
1. Naval nation can perform land operations (for instance, England is not cripple MP country with huge fleet but is strong on fields, like in real history)
2. OE, Russia, BB, France, Austria can build functional fleets, which can be united with other functional fleets)
3. ...
9786987. ...
If you want, open poll Bob. I have no objections.
Arguments are many;
1. Naval nation can perform land operations (for instance, England is not cripple MP country with huge fleet but is strong on fields, like in real history)
2. OE, Russia, BB, France, Austria can build functional fleets, which can be united with other functional fleets)
3. ...
9786987. ...
If you want, open poll Bob. I have no objections.
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Amp, it is a general rule in eu2 that the naval countries are stronger than the land powers, for a variety of reasons (leaders, monarchs, events, geography etc)
This rule will only serve to get rid of the advantages being a land power confers and I do not think that is a good thing at all.
This rule will only serve to get rid of the advantages being a land power confers and I do not think that is a good thing at all.
This arguing makes us land nations a second class member in the game and I don't like that style.
Dr Bob said:
It happened in Thirst for Glory. I was subbing FAL's Spain, KJ was Austria and Drake was England. Drake first attacked me with CRT low and while Tem and the rest of crew were hillarious over that mistake we signed peace. Soon he attacked me and I lost two CoTs.
KJ literally saved me from second obliteration by Drake. Austria and Spain can do wonders m8. All is just in policy - and believe me - Austria can have fine fleet without jeoperdising its position on the continent.
Thirst for Glory was not a normal game at all Nab, it is not really relevant to this discussion as we are not using MT or Power Points
Joohoo said:
If you look it that way, its either second class for us or for you. But I don't look on it in that way. I think its better for the game. Better for policy and better for multiplication of possible alliance combinations.
BTW, Let's remember that Caslu's Austria unloaded from ships right onto Spain, grabbing fine part of Italy then.
Nabukodonosor said:
Erm as I've already explained locked land leaves the land nations as about 3rd class citizens.
And if you want more alliance combinations then how about you set the land slider at 5 or more, so land nations can go land to get the moral and mp so badly needed but means that the naval nations cannot go all the way to the naval settings, this gives the same effect for most nations but allows the Prussians, Austrians, Poles and Russians their historical advantages with their armies.
Dr Bob said:
Extreme land powers such as Austria and Russia perhaps though I would argue that Austria and Russia have other advantages. They lose incomewise, admitted. I doubt however that they have worse leaders and monarchs.
All the other countries are basicaly on par. Take France. If played well it can do exactly the same as England navalwise. For extended periods of time it is actualy superior to England with regards to Admirals (17th century). The same applies to Spain and Venice and to a lesser degree to Sweden and Brandenburg. So the way I see it the only true landpowers, per definitionem, are Austria and Russia.
They alone benefit from free sliders - all the others do not.
If we play without the lock you can pick your own specialty and then the nation will have its own "first class" choice.Nabukodonosor said:If you look it that way, its either second class for us or for you. But I don't look on it in that way. I think its better for the game. Better for policy and better for multiplication of possible alliance combinations.
BTW, Let's remember that Caslu's Austria unloaded from ships right onto Spain, grabbing fine part of Italy then.
As been said before, naval nations can make wonders with negative land dp:s and they got the leaders to survive it and of course the right supply support for ships. So I don't think locked slider is needed.
anyone talked to Csutton?
He is online on ICQ, i tried talking to him a few times today but i got no answer, probably afk or something.
Also, how is NL going to be handled? released when? with what maps and techs?
He is online on ICQ, i tried talking to him a few times today but i got no answer, probably afk or something.
Also, how is NL going to be handled? released when? with what maps and techs?
Dr Bob said:
Interesting idea.
Sadly it won´t work. Cause then all powers on the continent will have to go maximum land. For if Austria does France will follow suit which in turn will force Spain to do the same. Brandenburg will then have no other choice as to go maximum land as well.
We could, however, perhaps compromise and allow certain nations to move 2 towards land or naval.
Thus Portugal & NL could go 2 towards naval and Russia, Austria and BB could go 2 towards land.
How about this?
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