Ming stability with MoH

[Mrakvampire]

Are there any plans to make Ming more unstable?
Previously without MoH DLC it had a nice chance of explosion. Now it never explodes, mainly because it's always surrounded with tributaries that grant Ming A LOT of monarch points and money and never rebel.

 

[Dominion]

It's not supposed to implode when it's surrounded by tributaries.
My problem is that it isn't even imploding when it has 0 tributaries and no mandate power.

They made Ming too stable. I haven't seen them implode once and they had 0 mandate in every single run of mine.

 

[Mrakvampire]

It's not supposed to implode when it's surrounded by tributaries.
My problem is that it isn't even imploding when it has 0 tributaries and no mandate power.

They made Ming too stable. I haven't seen them implode once and they had 0 mandate in every single run of mine.

Yes, it's true. By saying that it's surrounded by tributaries I meant that early on it has a ton of monarch points, even with no institutions they are never behind schedule in techs (and all other asian countries are seriously behind) therefore AI neighbors (except Russia in late 17 century) can't even hope to destabilize Ming.

But yes, even when Ming has 0 mandate it is too stable. I would say ultra stable. And therefore I ask devs to take a look on this part of the world.

 

[caedussl]

Before MoH, they imploded almost every game unless you were playing on Very Hard. After, literally never do. I actually want to see screenshots of them imploding without player intervention. Would be really interesting to see.

I know PDX will do something about this eventually. I'd like to see a dynamic system for changing the dynasty in China (I'm inspired by the China stability mechanics in CK2 Jade Dragon). As well, if another power takes over the mandate, there should be dynamic country names. If Japan, Ayyuthaya or Tibet take the Mandate, they would have unique dynasty names like Yuan, Ming, and Qing (the other Chinese tags like Liang and Min make sense already for this purpose). I know this doesn't have any effect on gameplay but immersion feels would be through the roof.

 

[PhoenixG]

iirc Ming with 0 mandate doesn't raise any unrest. It only makes there units a bit more paper.

 

[Dominion]

iirc Ming with 0 mandate doesn't raise any unrest. It only makes there units a bit more paper.

Bordering non-tributary Horde nations is supposed to give... I think it was +5 unrest in quite a few provinces. But nothing ever revolts.

 

[DarthDanMan]

I've only had Ming explode when I was playing Manchu and full ocuppied Ming for a few years before white peacing out.

 

[Ninaran]

Bordering non-tributary Horde nations is supposed to give... I think it was +5 unrest in quite a few provinces. But nothing ever revolts.

Ming usually picking Humanist due to the Harmony mechanic makes them incredibly stable. Not to mention that they will pretty much never have low mandate unless the player messes with them in some way. Otherwise they'll push all their Celestial Reforms in mid 16th century and then sit at 100 Mandate and 100 Meritocracy the rest of the game.

They're a bit.. too stable now, I think.

 

[durbal]

They're probably too stable but they're also too easy to defeat since the AI tries to protect every tributary even if it has pretty much zero army. You just lower mandate, make their units total paper, then attack Ming. Peace out, attack another tributary right away. Ming accepts, so you take Ming's land again. Attack another tributary. Repeat until Ming doesn't exist.

It's really dumb and needs to be fixed. I'm not sure if East Asia is better or worse after MoH.

 

[Vulkandrache]

the AI tries to protect every tributary even if it has pretty much zero army

Thats not even the reason.
Defending a Tributary gets evaluated just like any other defensive CtA.
But a Patch or 2 ago it was changed so that AE gives massive reason to honor CtA's. That easily overpowers everything fromhaving not army to having massive loans.
And thats not just for Ming, it works everywhere.

 

[durbal]

Thats not even the reason.
Defending a Tributary gets evaluated just like any other defensive CtA.
But a Patch or 2 ago it was changed so that AE gives massive reason to honor CtA's. That easily overpowers everything fromhaving not army to having massive loans.
And thats not just for Ming, it works everywhere.

No, I mean it's a fault in the AI since it treats tributaries like they're strong allies and such. Players wouldn't rush to the defense of Sarig Yogir, so why does Ming fully mobilize for it?

The whole tributary thing needs to be rethought since it's easily gamed by players yet the AI has no idea how to use it. It makes for a very static and very silly East Asia.

 

[Johnny917]

I must admit, that I like the new stable China. It makes historical sense to a certain degree. If a country like Ming never stopped adapting and treated its people fairly (for example through harmonizing or humanist ideas) there is no reason for them to implode. People must remember, that things we deem as natural occurrences in history were actually based on huge amount of luck.

If China never goes isolationist (which they do not do in game) and still keep up in tech and keep their tributaries, then for all logic they should be a monstrous block capable of murdering everybody around them. Qing won because China chose the wrong path, in the game they never do, so they never fail.

We need a mechanic representing China becoming more and more separated from the rest of the world and stagnating, both in tech and diplomacy.

 

[Dominion]

I must admit, that I like the new stable China. It makes historical sense to a certain degree. If a country like Ming never stopped adapting and treated its people fairly (for example through harmonizing or humanist ideas) there is no reason for them to implode. People must remember, that things we deem as natural occurrences in history were actually based on huge amount of luck.

If China never goes isolationist (which they do not do in game) and still keep up in tech and keep their tributaries, then for all logic they should be a monstrous block capable of murdering everybody around them. Qing won because China chose the wrong path, in the game they never do, so they never fail.

We need a mechanic representing China becoming more and more separated from the rest of the world and stagnating, both in tech and diplomacy.

If we're going to use history as an example we can just go on with existing mechanics.
Horde nations and Europeans invading Ming destabilizes them.

This is supposed to be reflected by the Horde disaster and some other supposedly nasty events that should hit them, but none of these events or disasters suffice to even dent them.

I too prefer a more stable Ming over the old "let's roll a dice. 5 out of 6 times they have a Mingsplosion for no reason at all", but to have no Mingsplosion at all is just wrong.

Give them +10 unrest after they've been sitting on 0 mandate for 20 years. Or +5 unrest in all regions bordering non-tributary Horde nations. Or +5 unrest if Europeans hold original Ming cores. Or really anything you can come up with.

But to never have them implode under any circumstance feels weird.

 

[Johnny917]

If we're going to use history as an example we can just go on with existing mechanics.
Horde nations and Europeans invading Ming destabilizes them.

This is supposed to be reflected by the Horde disaster and some other supposedly nasty events that should hit them, but none of these events or disasters suffice to even dent them.

I too prefer a more stable Ming over the old "let's roll a dice. 5 out of 6 times they have a Mingsplosion for no reason at all", but to have no Mingsplosion at all is just wrong.

Give them +10 unrest after they've been sitting on 0 mandate for 20 years. Or +5 unrest in all regions bordering non-tributary Horde nations. Or +5 unrest if Europeans hold original Ming cores. Or really anything you can come up with.

But to never have them implode under any circumstance feels weird.

I have to agree with you. I still would like a mechanic, lets say 0-100 isolationism. At zero, Ming functions like a normal country, with no drawbacks. At 100, there could be a multiplier for unrest for war exhaustion, a multiplier for rebel size, with then larger tech costs.

It would not be random so to say, and there is indeed enough potential that there are different outcomes. For interesting possibilities, you could say, that isolationism rises, if you do not have non-tributaries on your borders or diplomatic relations with non-tributaries. That would make this system a balancing act and Ming a generally more interesting country.

 

[ywxiao]

Ming going isolationist is only true for the middle part of it's reign, they were not isolationist near the end. Qing is the isolationist one.

The issue I see is that AI knows exactly how strong a nation is, and does not declare suicidal wars to tire out their overlord. This was addressed in Meiou where my tributaries would constantly randomly declare conquest war on me, where the odds are 3k against my 800k+.

AI should have an aggression gauge, once it fills ip it will declare a suicidal war no matter the odds. There should be an estate interaction like in Meiou that gives a large number of troops so they can put a dent in majors. Though it sounds stupid, this should hopefully address the "no one attacks big blob" issue we keep seeing.

 

[Dominion]

It sounds extremely stupid tbh.

Why would any nation under any circumstance suicide on the biggest guy on the map?

I've heard about a second type of coalition, new alliance mechanics, certain destabilization mechanics and more, but "have one guy randomly declare war just because" is not even half a suggestion.

And to give that nation random boni because magic and unicorns sounds ridiculous.

 

[Vulkandrache]

to tire out their overlord

The Overlord or the player playing the Overlord?

 

[ponasozis]

the main problem is that even when rebels do fire

all the tributaries send in units to kill them

.....................


which is absolute nonsense

 

[Mrakvampire]

the main problem is that even when rebels do fire

all the tributaries send in units to kill them

.....................


which is absolute nonsense

Totally agree.

 

[ywxiao]

It sounds extremely stupid tbh.

Why would any nation under any circumstance suicide on the biggest guy on the map?

Because you don't know any better, real life rulers do not have 1/10th the macro information we can see. You are a medieval ruler who has 200k troops at your command, you begin to think why you should pay tribute to some guy 5000 km away whom you've never seen.

People tell you it's because he's got 2million troops, but how much is 2 million? Not something that you can comprehend, so you decide yo declare war.