Ming is Broken, some basic fixes are needed!

[ywxiao]

Looking back, listing their GP status wasn't important to the case I was making, so I guess I was just painting the picture so to speak. Despite that, I don't see what your saying refutes what me and others been stating about Ming. I think them benefiting from a star league technology advantage isn't necessary, they begin the game with an incredible Force Limit and Development level, they begin the game at 1st GP.

So are you talking from a gameplay perspective, that fighting a nation on par with you in mil tech is too difficult in hard mode?
If so, I'd like to invite you to take a look at standard Ottomans/France/Russia or any one of the other European nations that prevails.

Or are you talking from a historical perspective?
If so, I'd be more concerned about Bahmanis existing and flourishing in 1550 when they should have been dead 20+ years ago.

 

[ShahanShah]

New changelog for 1.24
Ming now gets a +5 to unrest and -100% available mercs at 0 Mandate
Also he can't train units in Tribs anymore and devastation has a bigger impact on mandate

 

[Aotrs Commander]

-Ming being able to train mercs from his Tributaries just flat out needs to go. I've occupied all his land and he keeps building hundreds of thousands of men from Korea and Japan that I cant even siege. I've killed half a million mercs alone from Korea. FIX THIS, ITS BROKEN!

Looks like you got your wish as of 1.24, as well.

 

[Mrakvampire]

Great news. With nerf to mercs and increase in unrest (with 0 mandate) Ming will finally start to collapse with low mandate, I hope.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

New changelog for 1.24
Ming now gets a +5 to unrest and -100% available mercs at 0 Mandate
Also he can't train units in Tribs anymore and devastation has a bigger impact on mandate

Fucking finally. I am most pleased.

 

[bly08]

You have to actually get them to 0 mandate first though.

 

[ShahanShah]

You have to actually get them to 0 mandate first though.

Will be relatively easy consider horde mandate loss, and how much reforms cost now

 

[Sukramo]

Looks like you got your wish as of 1.24, as well.

Paradox accepted our demands!

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

Great news. Can't wait to see if this will pan out.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Enjoy a "thermonuclear" (thanks for the expression @TheMeInTeam ) giant paper tiger with its perma near 0 regiments army (after someone big borders them)

 

[FrogCrusher]

You have to actually get them to 0 mandate first though.

Unguarded nomadic frontier disaster

 

[bly08]

I don't think the people complaining were playing hordes.

 

[FrogCrusher]

Yeah, I agree Banners are already OP and one can stackwipe most of ming's army even with less regiments. So no need to ask for Ming nerf in that case ^^

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Effect of the new EoC changes below:

Got to 300 dev, waited for Ming to begin a useless war for tribute against Chagatai (which was pointless since they are allied to Delhi). Then de-tributized myself.

Ming is not looking too hot. Their idiot tributaries in Sarig Yogor and Kham are however trying to siege down the rebels and help them. However I think it won't matter in the end. MIng currently has 0 manpower 62k regular soldiers remaining of those 15k are mercenaries. However suspect those might be leftovers from their war against Chagatai.

Update: Ming is down to 655 dev, six new nations have popped out. Down to 19k troops and 8 of those are mercs. Only problem is still that minor tributaries from Indo-China walks all the way to Yumen to try and siege down the rebels. However it doesn't matter all that much since most of the rebel stacks are around 20k-40k.

Extra update: The Breakaway state of Wu has declared a War for the Mandate of Heaven. Currently doing a bang up job of it too!

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

I think Europeans should get +9000% discipline vs. Chinese troops. It is historically accurate.

 

[Mrakvampire]

Just run several observer games.
What can I say... Ming still have ~70-75 mercs with 0 Mandate (probably due to Admin idea group).
In one game Ming never lost any land due to rebels for 150 years with 0 Mandate (starting from 1620 till 1774, then I stopped observing).
In second game Ming never went to 0 Mandate due to never been challenged by anyone.
In third game Ming actually lost 2 or 3 provinces to rebels in 1763 after ~90 years of Mandate 0.

Problem is that rebels are just worthless. Or worse, they are worse than worthless. I've seen multiple times when 50k stack of rebels is being wiped by 14k-16k Ming forces with 0 Mandate! It is just silly.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Just run several observer games.
What can I say... Ming still have ~70-75 mercs with 0 Mandate (probably due to Admin idea group).
In one game Ming never lost any land due to rebels for 150 years with 0 Mandate (starting from 1620 till 1774, then I stopped observing).
In second game Ming never went to 0 Mandate due to never been challenged by anyone.
In third game Ming actually lost 2 or 3 provinces to rebels in 1763 after ~90 years of Mandate 0.

Problem is that rebels are just worthless. Or worse, they are worse than worthless. I've seen multiple times when 50k stack of rebels is being wiped by 14k-16k Ming forces with 0 Mandate! It is just silly.

They´ve managed to recruit the mercs before hitting 0 mandate; so despite being at 0 mandate and possibly 0 manpower those mercenaries kept them afloat.
There is still some randomness left that might prevent/slow down the collapse; like will Ming hire/have a theologian? The 1st test that I did while playing live as Manchu showed Ming exploding less than fifty years into the game due to not having enough regiments to clear all the rebels. The only thing that I did was to take their capital, kill any regiment that entered my territory and spectate while other tags dogpilled them and rebels eventually broke the country (despite the efforts of their tributaries to prevent it). Ming is now a giant paper tiger.
This should have happened ~20 years earlier but they recruited a theologian whch combined with a little corruption saved their ass:

 

[leubez]

In recent patch, Ming have some small scale explosion, and take those newly spawned Chinese states as tributaries afterward. How an empire legitimate itself as the sole ruler of all Chinese land tolerate with some small chinese minor state?

And IMO the Chinese empire system need a total change, it's a very backward gover system in history, and should not be count as some kind of reward for player try to take it. It provide stability to the realm, but fail to make a country stronger in modern standard. It need reform and mordenize mechanics to make Chinese empire truely work in an age of exploration, innovation and rapid change, thus make Ming a country with some level of challenge to play.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Ming shouldn't be tributizing nations that hold land in China Proper.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Ming is down to 655 dev, six new nations have popped out. Down to 19k troops and 8 of those are mercs

That is what I meant when I said this without even having the opportunity to play in 1.24. Hopefully the OP is happy now. Whatever really.

Enjoy a "thermonuclear" (thanks for the expression @TheMeInTeam ) giant paper tiger with its perma near 0 regiments army (after someone big borders them)