Ming is Broken, some basic fixes are needed!

[zePa]

how often does the AI form Spain? quite often
how often does the AI form Great Britain? quite often
how often does the AI form Russia? quite often
how often does the AI form Italy? almost never (and it's ok, Italy was formed only in 1861)

now, how often does the AI form Manchu and then Qing?

please answer this and draw your own conclusion.

Edit
I'm not here to say what have to be buffed/nerfed. -3 unrest? +20% morale of banners? alien invasion on Ming lands? I don't know, but AI never forming Qing is a clear evidence, and needs to be fixed, I don't know how.

 

[ShahanShah]

how often does the AI form Spain? quite often
how often does the AI form Great Britain? quite often
how often does the AI form Russia? quite often
how often does the AI form Italy? almost never (and it's ok, Italy was formed only in 1861)

now, how often does the AI form Manchu and then Qing?

please answer this and draw your own conclusion.

Manchu is rare, but I have seen it. I've never seen Qing form by the AI.

 

[bbqftw]

Do you often play in East Asia? If no then go drink some juice. If yes I invite you to play a game as either in Indo-China, Japan or Oriats where the goal is to become EoC legit.
Also your arguements about the Big Bad Ottomans doesn’t work. Ottomans are countered by having a lot of relatively equal powers in Europe/Middle East. Like Austria, Hungary, Mamluks, Poland-Lithuania, France, Great Britain, Prussia, Spain. If they screw up too much, relatively equal powers can strike back and carve them up. This doesn’t happen with Ming at all. If your Ottoman comparision was to be usable. Then Ming would be a surrounded by 3-5 other countries with around 60-75% the development of Ming each.

And since Paradox aren’t going to add in Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria the off coast of China. Some fixes are required.

why would you take eoc lol

Downgrade government, awful anti expansion mechanics. Not worth the trouble.

Played ternate and shimazu on VH, no real problems.

Every time I play Manchu I beat Ming before 1460.

I don't see the problems, Ming is far easier to beat than monsters like early game ottos (even with allies vs Otto). Mercspamming is really only a serious issue if they have a quality lead on you.

 

[Troopperi]

I don't think that formation of Qing should really be excepted from the AI. The later a historical event is in the timeline, the harder it is to represent without excessive railroading. I think I have seen Qing sometimes with the old Mingsplosion, but the Mingsplosion was a bit silly. I do agree that Ming should be adjusted somewhat though. Maybe something to destabilize big countries, preferably in a way that makes trying to keep player empires stable fun too, could be useful, but I can see something like that being difficult to implement.

 

[bly08]

Do you often play in East Asia? If no then go drink some juice. If yes I invite you to play a game as either in Indo-China, Japan or Oriats where the goal is to become EoC legit.
Also your arguements about the Big Bad Ottomans doesn’t work. Ottomans are countered by having a lot of relatively equal powers in Europe/Middle East. Like Austria, Hungary, Mamluks, Poland-Lithuania, France, Great Britain, Prussia, Spain. If they screw up too much, relatively equal powers can strike back and carve them up. This doesn’t happen with Ming at all. If your Ottoman comparision was to be usable. Then Ming would be a surrounded by 3-5 other countries with around 60-75% the development of Ming each.

And since Paradox aren’t going to add in Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria the off coast of China. Some fixes are required.

It's funny you mention Oirat cuz the fastest time for taking EoC from the Challenge thread is 1448 as Oirat with a 493 day siege time for Beijing:

You can extrapolate how difficult this should be for a decent but not amazing player.

Oh and here's a 1475 Taungu Empire:

https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/7ahgz4/first_taungu_empire_by_1475/

 

[hahaha01357]

How about the AI? Without player's significant intervension, there can be only one out come.

And Ming should collaps after a major defeat, becoming the new emperror by eating Ming slowly through more than 10 wars is extremely boring game play.

Except if you want historicity, every time a new dynasty came to power in China, it was either through internal intrigue or decades upon decades of warfare. Case in point:

Qin Dynasty to Han Dynasty: 209 - 202 BCE
Han Dynasty to Jin Dynasty: 220 - 254 CE
Jin Dynasty to Sui Dynasty: 420 - 581 CE
Sui Dynasty to Tang Dynasty: 611 - 618 CE
Tang Dynasty to Song Dynasty: 907 - 960 CE
Song/Jin Dynasties to Yuan Dynasty: 1205 - 1279 CE
Yuan Dynasty to Ming Dynasty: 1351 - 1368 CE
Ming Dynasty to Qing Dynasty: 1618 - 1683 CE

 

[Gnostek]

I do agree however that low mandate/meritocracy should add unrest like ANY OTHER LEGITIMACY

 

[ywxiao]

I've just had a game where Oirat, allied with Korchin, Haixi and Jianzhou, were strong enough to win a tributary war against Ming at the start of the game. Unfortunately, Oirat was crippled and eaten by Chagatai afterwards, but it seems to me that the answer to Ming isn't to nerf them, but to to buff the surrounding nations - particularly the hordes. I don't personally have a problem with Ming as it stands (though some tweaks to Ming may be necessary) but stronger bordering horde nations that could actually challenge Ming would be more historically accurate and act as a nerf in itself.

Not going to tab that little x, but I disagree. The hordes are strong enough in early game to make Ming lose land, that's enough. The problem is the south and much ignored region of Indochina.

Ming had to fight two costly wars against opponents who fielded 300k troops. Ming destroyed both of these but also suffered immensely. Also Japan os having trouble challenging Korea, since the later easily expands into north asia and gets 500+ dev.

how often does the AI form Spain? quite often
how often does the AI form Great Britain? quite often
how often does the AI form Russia? quite often
how often does the AI form Italy? almost never (and it's ok, Italy was formed only in 1861)

now, how often does the AI form Manchu and then Qing?

please answer this and draw your own conclusion.

Edit
I'm not here to say what have to be buffed/nerfed. -3 unrest? +20% morale of banners? alien invasion on Ming lands? I don't know, but AI never forming Qing is a clear evidence, and needs to be fixed, I don't know how.

The problem is again Korea, if one of the Manchu tribes suvive more than 20% of the time we might see more action from them.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

You're making random proposals based on lack of experience with how the game plays out and from not understanding game mechanics.

I... The rest of the nerfs are just gonna make Ming even less appealing to play than it is now.

Yep that sums up very well the vast majority of the posts in this thread including the OP. I could not say it any better, thanks for that.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

It's funny you mention Oirat cuz the fastest time for taking EoC from the Challenge thread is 1448 as Oirat with a 493 day siege time for Beijing:

You can extrapolate how difficult this should be for a decent but not amazing player.

Oh and here's a 1475 Taungu Empire:

https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/7ahgz4/first_taungu_empire_by_1475/

Sorry for not elaborating properly. What should have written is taking the Mandate and ruling over China. I wrongly assumed that by "become EoC legit" you would have inferred an actual concluded and successful conquest and working EoC a la Qing or Yuan. It is legitimately my fault for not wording my post correctly, I am sorry. But yeah the actual initial taking of the Mandate isn't the real problem, done it plenty of times as Oriat, Qing and once as Tibet. The real problem is what you are suppose to do after aka conquer China and establish a successful EoC.

why would you take eoc lol

Indeed, which is the problem. Balancing and fixing is needed.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Based on most of the suggestions, they would prefer Ming to start exploded in 1444 (as is historical, straight to 400 BC) or explode as soon as they stackwipe 20% of their army.

It is actually pretty funny, just wish they would be honest about not wanting to deal with an Ottoman-style big bad in the East.

Just like how annoyed people are that now the AI doesn't constantly trip over itself building docks and now properly builds, and that's a *huge problem*(!!!!)

Ming is NOT an "Ottoman-style big bad" though. The tributary system creates an environment where they consistently won't turn on you until you want to fight them. Short of some fast favor farming Ottomans are nowhere near as safe, and thanks to how bad WYSP is compared to WYP even 80+ trust isn't a slam dunk. Ottomans fight better too, development for development. Ming is pretty distant behind Ottomans and winner of Spain/France in terms of being an oppressive local hurdle. IMO even early game Muscovy is more annoying in practice.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Imagine if Ming's Tributary system worked like the HRE? And if Ming were allowed to intervene in wars between tributaries

 

[Simoleum]

Also Ming's tributaries sieging down rebel occupied provinces, fighting with rebels. This shouldn't be allowed i think.

The worst thing is how Ming gives provinces to tributaries just because they have claimed some provinces ("it rightfully belongs to them" option)

 

[Naga Niome]

You decided to attack Ming with 50 years left in the game for the first time, what did you expect would happen? 0 Mandate troops are paper, you're greatly exaggerating Ming's power.

To whoever said Ming was 10/10/10 in 1525, this is my current game:

That was me. Its my first 1.23 game, but there is an issue in regards to Ming with having excessive Monarch Points as well.

In my game its the year 1550, Ming is 3rd GP, Bahmani's is 8th right.

They both suffer from 195% Technology Cost due to both of them not possessing the Renaissance and Colonialism Institutions right.

The highest technology levels in my game thus far are 12/12/12, 1550.

Ming is currently 12/10/12

Bahmani is currently 9/10/7

I just feel like something is wrong there, not adding up right to make balanced gameplay. That's all. Ming sits around (gladly) collecting MP,
and then being fed MP most likely from its numerous Tributaries it has no problem at all losing, unless they eat each other, which doesn't happen really too.
I'm playing on Hard, I don't know what your playing on, it could be due to my Ming having a string of several decent rulers, but I feel Ming should at most, be
sitting at, say, 10/10/11 at 1550 right now.

None of their Tributaries surrounding them are higher than 10/9/9 with one or two exceptions like 11 Diplomatic, they're all basically Red or Orange in the Technology Mode. Bahmanis are typically involved in continuous expansion, like every other nation in this game, except, the Ming. Just something has to be done. They're the Green lake in the land of Red/Orange. I bet if Ming suffered from not having Renaissance, Colonialism, Printing Press, and Global Trade, they'd still be keeping up with Western/Central Europe.

 

[ywxiao]

That was me. Its my first 1.23 game, but there is an issue in regards to Ming with having excessive Monarch Points as well.

In my game its the year 1550, Ming is 3rd GP, Bahmani's is 8th right.

They both suffer from 195% Technology Cost due to both of them not possessing the Renaissance and Colonialism Institutions right.

The highest technology levels in my game thus far are 12/12/12, 1550.

Ming is currently 12/10/12

Bahmani is currently 9/10/7

I just feel like something is wrong there, not adding up right to make balanced gameplay. That's all. Ming sits around (gladly) collecting MP,
and then being fed MP most likely from its numerous Tributaries it has no problem at all losing, unless they eat each other, which doesn't happen really too.
I'm playing on Hard, I don't know what your playing on, it could be due to my Ming having a string of several decent rulers, but I feel Ming should at most, be
sitting at, say, 10/10/11 at 1550 right now.

None of their Tributaries surrounding them are higher than 10/9/9 with one or two exceptions like 11 Diplomatic, they're all basically Red or Orange in the Technology Mode. Bahmanis are typically involved in continuous expansion, like every other nation in this game, except, the Ming. Just something has to be done. They're the Green lake in the land of Red/Orange. I bet if Ming suffered from not having Renaissance, Colonialism, Printing Press, and Global Trade, they'd still be keeping up with Western/Central Europe.

They are already 3rd GP, why is this a problem? Do you want a big blob with +50%damage taken AND garbage morale/tactics/units?

1550 is when an OPM start can prepare to challenge Ming, but it's not supposed to be easy.

 

[Mrkew]

Look at the beautiful 1.23.1 Mingsplosion. I haven't seen one since MoH (500~ hours since then), yet this happened right after first reform without any player intervention.
Manchu still didn't form or went on a conquering spree because of eternally cockblocking koreans.

 

[CrazyZombie]

Look at the beautiful 1.23.1 Mingsplosion. I haven't seen one since MoH (500~ hours since then), yet this happened right after first reform without any player intervention.
Manchu still didn't form or went on a conquering spree because of eternally cockblocking koreans.
View attachment 320411 View attachment 320412

That is BEAUTIFUL!

And I will never see it in my Russia games...

 

[bly08]

I'm playing on Hard, I don't know what your playing on, it could be due to my Ming having a string of several decent rulers, but I feel Ming should at most, be
sitting at, say, 10/10/11 at 1550 right now.

Why is 10/10/11 "balanced" but 12/10/12 not okay? What about 12/11/11, or 11/10/12, or 10/12/10, or 12/11/12? Would those be balanced or unbalanced?

 

[Naga Niome]

Why is 10/10/11 "balanced" but 12/10/12 not okay? What about 12/11/11, or 11/10/12, or 10/12/10, or 12/11/12? Would those be balanced or unbalanced?

Because the other nations surrounding Ming, their Tributaries and then their neighbors are around 8/8/7 to 10/10/11, at 1550 in my game. Some with great rulers, some with decent or even terrible rulers. Then we got Ming, who is blasting away like its living amongst France, Austria, HRE, Ottomans, etc, at 12/10/12. From India to Buryatia they're all at 195% Technology Costs. I just think Ming should be slowed down. in this regard. Besides, there can be a substantial difference in being two Military techs behind your neighbors. Plus again, think its even unfair Ming's Tributaries are benefiting from Ming sitting around, so they get reductions in advancing their techs.

I bet it was pretty much the same situation in your game. Although in your photos, your Ming seemed a bit underwhelming so far. And as far as specific Monarch skills, Administrative is the most important, and often the most used, that even when expanding, you'll have plenty to tech-up. Then theirs Military, and lastly Diplomatic despite having the most uses.

They are already 3rd GP, why is this a problem? Do you want a big blob with +50%damage taken AND garbage morale/tactics/units?

1550 is when an OPM start can prepare to challenge Ming, but it's not supposed to be easy.

Looking back, listing their GP status wasn't important to the case I was making, so I guess I was just painting the picture so to speak. Despite that, I don't see what your saying refutes what me and others been stating about Ming. I think them benefiting from a star league technology advantage isn't necessary, they begin the game with an incredible Force Limit and Development level, they begin the game at 1st GP.

 

[bly08]

Because the other nations surrounding Ming, their Tributaries and then their neighbors are around 8/8/7 to 10/10/11, at 1550 in my game. Some with great rulers, some with decent or even terrible rulers. Then we got Ming, who is blasting away like its living amongst France, Austria, HRE, Ottomans, etc, at 12/10/12. From India to Buryatia they're all at 195% Technology Costs. I just think Ming should be slowed down. in this regard. Besides, there can be a substantial difference in being two Military techs behind your neighbors. Plus again, think its even unfair Ming's Tributaries are benefiting from Ming sitting around, so they get reductions in advancing their techs.

I bet it was pretty much the same situation in your game. Although in your photos, your Ming seemed a bit underwhelming so far. And as far as specific Monarch skills, Administrative is the most important, and often the most used, that even when expanding, you'll have plenty to tech-up. Then theirs Military, and lastly Diplomatic despite having the most uses.

I can't believe how broken this is. I am playing currently as Ottomans, and they're 10/10/10 at 1522. They could be, yes, what everyone here is missing is that their Tributaries are benefiting from their technological synergy. I notice many of Ming's Tributaries are at higher tech levels than their non-Tributary neighbors.

Not only that, but from what I see, Ming ALWAYS protects it Tributaries, thus nobody can attack their goblins around them. Their Tributaries keeping feeding and feeding themselves when an opportunity appears, yet, nobody ever attacks them. That's really stupid.

I wanna make it my personal pet project to break their Mandate as Ottomans, but seeing the above screenshot, this means they're gonna at a higher Military level than me, even if I outnumber them 2:1.

You would like to conquer Ming as the Ottomans. In that case Ming's adm/dip tech do not make a difference to your goal, only mil tech does. Unless you're constantly wasting points, it's very hard to fall behind Ming in mil tech as the Ottomans. Adm mana in general has significantly less value to a non-blobbing nation. It sounds like you want an easier WC but you're not even proposing changes that would make it easier.