Ming is Broken, some basic fixes are needed!

[ywxiao]

Some suggestions for allowing AI Qing to form without buffing player Manchu too much:

1. Decrease the war score cost for taking mandate for Manchu or hordes only. Mandate mechanic is terrible for the player to take so it wouldn't make a difference.

2. Less important, change the province requirements or have Xilingol flip to Manchu via rebels or event. AI Manchu would never be able to take it otherwise.

3. Tell AI Manchu to never engage Korea in mountains or decrease Korea's starting force limit.

1. Could make it so it's for someone with confucian religion. And yes, a player almost never takes mandate because it's designed for non blobby play and even then it's a weak government type. It's like a running joke in MP to tease about taking the mandate to your rivals, and never actually doing it.

2. Manchu should get mission to subjugate the steppes and/or PU Mongolia, as was done in history. Though in game this would provide very little benefit for the Manchus.

3. This is a major sticking point for me, as the main advantage of the Manchu cavalry compared to other horde cavalry was that Manchu banners were good at fighting in mountains and forests. The game doesn't model this at all and simply pigeon hole Manchu together with other hordes. Maybe change Manchu's tradition to give no penalty when fighting in mountains, hills, or forests or something.

 

[Salix]

That's just not how wars vs 1000+ development AIs (or humans for that matter) work in this game. By design too, given how forts and merc pools function. Siege while dealing with threat of opponent army is very much part of the design of pitched wars between large nations.

Sieging while threat of opponent is not what I meant. I don't know how to say it. But Problems might be gone with slower speed. If there would be terrain speed and maybe no free movement and recruiting in tributaries would make fighting him, not a hassle.

Also Tributaries never breake free even if their ally is stronger, than Ming.

My Problem with Mandate and Meritocracy is they penalties only apply to War and Espionage. When my legitmacy is low or Republican tradition are low I get unrest.
Ming has thorugh animist adpation already a 0.5 reduction. I don't want it to be significant modifier, more like 1 unrest at 0 Meritocracy to at leas set of bonus they got.

While agree they historical had no big separatist event, but massive Rebellion through famine and other things.



After those discussion and little big experimenting in my game my new proposal,

Neighbours:
Make the horde a bit stronger and more likley to break away from tributaries. Especially the AI hordes
Have Tributaries with strong allies more likley to break away
No Recruitment and no automaticly granted military acess in tributaries

Ming:
weakening it:
make Meritocracy at 0 a little unrest modifier my proposal is -1.
Make income from tributaries less.
Have Events increase inflation
(Ming was a Production powerhouse and Europe dumbed a lot of Gold and Silver there, so they had problems with their currency, their is one event already in place. But in the current setup in not significant enough)

Making Ming stronger:
Let it build more ships and fight pirates. Ming doesn't fight Pirates. Also it has bunch of transportships it never used after 1600, because his Navy was always very weak compared to all stronger neighbors.
Let it develop more and not tech 9-15 years ahead. Also let it develop a lot more in cheap farmlands provinces. He does it to a certain amount, but some provinces, which would be very cheap to upgrade are left alone at 6, while other are build up to 20-40.

Generell Problems that will fix problems.
The endless mercanary problem that addressed in other threads.
The everybody has to much gold Problem that is addressed in other threads.(While Ming was really rich it had Problems collecting it, but I don't know how show that ingame)
The manpower problem. I thing in late Game the manpowerreserve and forcelimits and replenishment feel way to low and the AI has Problems to manage them.
Also AI should go over force limit if they can afford it.
The fast movement which is already implemented in the next patch.

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

If there would be terrain speed

There are terrain movement speed modifiers: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_warfare#Terrain

Mountain is +50%, Jungle is +50%, Hill is +40%, Highlands is +40%, Marsh is +30%, Forest is +25%, etc.

 

[Harkruya]

That's part of the problem but it's not a problem that's exclusive to Ming. I recently got my arse kicked by Transoxania as Russia because they were ahead in mil. My tech discount was only 5% behind time and they had not embraced as many institutions. It's not that uncommon to see someone like Malacca also up there in terms of tech in the late game. Or Indian majors if they get some institution spread.

Ideally I'd want to see tech drastically made more expensive east of the ottomans and south of north Africa. But to balance it out I'd give them drastically bigger manpower and force limits.

Something something technology group

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

The problem with Ming and Techs is due to countries pumping Monarch points into development, causing Institutions to spread into Ming faster. I am sure that if you disabled Common Sense you would have a much less insane Ming.
Here are my recommendations.
1. Make countries near Ming less interested into pumping points into development
2. Get rid of the bloody Monarch Point tribute. The benefits are simply absurd
3. Make Institutions such that you cannot spawn or embrace an institution unless you embraced all the previous ones. Usually it takes a while for Ming to embrace some due to location difficulties(Printing Press comes to mind, since it always spawns in Germany and minors have ideas to pump points into). This way Ming probably won't be spawning institutions.
4. Make Mandate loss give Unrest. Losing the Mandate meant that the Emperor lost the trust of God(or Gods, whatever, you get the point). Obviously this would be capitalized on by pretenders and the people would want change

 

[bly08]

Starting as a Western country I've honestly never encountered a Ming that was even on mil tech for as long as I've been able to WC.

 

[Mansa Sekou]

I think the problem has more to do with Big Blobs than specifically Ming. Hell most of the problems in this thread also apply to the Ottomans/France. There is also the Indian Hugbox that happens around 1550ish. Large nations in general are too strong and more importantly too stable. I was going to suggest adding a disaster for Ming to nerf them then remembered that France and Ottos already have "disasters"(Wars of Religion, Decadence, French revolution..) that don't ever fire as they are too stable.

 

[makaramus]

Why would it be more historical for Ming to fracture?

many dont want it to fracture... they usually want it to have problem
ming is WAY TOO stable for an empire ... especially compared to history

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

There's a strong lobby in these forums for big and stable blobs (ENEMIES FOR LATE GAME!!). I'm not a fan, and my goal by mid-game is usually blob-bursting since I'm not interested in ahistorical WC. This involves guaranteeing minors, supporting separatist rebels and lots of wars for releasing nations. It's a shame I end up being "world police" but I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Salix]

I think blobbing became way to easy for player and AI. But that's no Problem for Ming as it is really big and is never expanding a lot.
But the it is to easy to be super stable while blobbing could make a good thread.

 

[bly08]

If you think blobbing is too easy then why are you complaining about Ming?

 

[Salix]

Did you really read any of my previous post. How many times did I try to tell you, that I'm not interested in big blobbing or World Conquest. Read the post from the previous poster, it explains pretty good, what we want to achieve.
And even though I generally don't play this, doesn't mean I never did blobbing in game, but those games were those which made at least fun.


I even made some games, because of this Ming thread to experiment a little.
I made a post saying which things I think should be changed. And there were buffs for the neighbors, and weakening AND buffing Ming.

I would like more constructive Post from you. Like saying what you think is good as it is, what need improvement.
All you do is asking, why complain about Ming, saying you need an Endboss and asking if it is so easy why changing it.

For you again some of the points.

There is generally a merc, money and blobbing/not enough unrest problem not only Ming has.
Ming has some mechanics that don't feel right, like hiring mercs on tributaries.
Ming sucks at everything that has to do with navy.
The hordes and Manchu tribes are weak, if a player don't play them Ming/Korea/Russia always eat them or stay small tributaries.
Mandate thing is only military/espionage/money relevant, while every other countries get's unrest penalties. And if you look at histories that doesn't even slightly makes sense and balance is screwed through that too.

 

[bly08]

Tributaries never breake free even if their ally is stronger, than Ming.

Here are some tributaries breaking away, happens every game:

Here's Ming behind on tech compared to France/Castille:

I would like more constructive Post from you. Like saying what you think is good as it is, what need improvement.
All you do is asking, why complain about Ming, saying you need an Endboss and asking if it is so easy why changing it.

You're making random proposals based on lack of experience with how the game plays out and from not understanding game mechanics.

If you want to break Ming, +1 unrest from low meritocracy isn't gonna do anything. The rest of the nerfs are just gonna make Ming even less appealing to play than it is now.

The manpower problem. I thing in late Game the manpowerreserve and forcelimits and replenishment feel way to low and the AI has Problems to manage them.
Also AI should go over force limit if they can afford it.

You're making up problems now

 

[makaramus]

1)No longer allow him to merc recruit from tributaries
2)Tributary taxes should incrase with mandate/reforms(maybe with both)
3)You should not take stab hit for breaking tributary

 

[bbqftw]

Medium sized regional powers break away from Ming every game, on VH at least.

Of course if you're playing on the difficulty where the AI can rarely tie its shoelaces, then you cannot expect it to get its act together to contest Ming.

 

[Redshank]

I've just had a game where Oirat, allied with Korchin, Haixi and Jianzhou, were strong enough to win a tributary war against Ming at the start of the game. Unfortunately, Oirat was crippled and eaten by Chagatai afterwards, but it seems to me that the answer to Ming isn't to nerf them, but to to buff the surrounding nations - particularly the hordes. I don't personally have a problem with Ming as it stands (though some tweaks to Ming may be necessary) but stronger bordering horde nations that could actually challenge Ming would be more historically accurate and act as a nerf in itself.

 

[Salix]

Yeah my Proposal totally will make Ming unplayable and I totally don't understand Mechanics of the Game...
All random proposal.


+1 Unrest will atleast upset the -0.5 from harmonizing the pagan religion. I would even say +2 unrest like all other Nations get, but I wanted to make something in between to make every happy here.

Also we can now start Screenshot spamming. Yes everything can happen, but some things happen rarely. Excepts the player helps a lot and that also shown in your screenshot.

I can also make a korea game, let every instutions except of 2 spawn in asia and then show you the tech.

But i won't argue anymore I made my points clear and you are not able to comprehent my playstyle or what I want to achieve.

 

[bly08]

How would you know if something happens rarely or most of the time? I can show 5-6 different starts on 1.22-1.23 with Ming losing tributaries. What do you base your assumptions on? As seen in the screenshots, Ming lost a total of 100 dev in 25 years. There had been two institutions that both spawned in Europe. I can provide more examples but I've a feeling it's not gonna help.

You ask for criticism, I show screenshots that go against your assumption, you reject them based on a bunch of nonsense. This exemplifies the type of ignorance that drives these threads.

 

[bbqftw]

Based on most of the suggestions, they would prefer Ming to start exploded in 1444 (as is historical, straight to 400 BC) or explode as soon as they stackwipe 20% of their army.

It is actually pretty funny, just wish they would be honest about not wanting to deal with an Ottoman-style big bad in the East.

Just like how annoyed people are that now the AI doesn't constantly trip over itself building docks and now properly builds, and that's a *huge problem*(!!!!)

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Based on most of the suggestions, they would prefer Ming to start exploded in 1444 (as is historical, straight to 400 BC) or explode as soon as they stackwipe 20% of their army.

It is actually pretty funny, just wish they would be honest about not wanting to deal with an Ottoman-style big bad in the East.

Just like how annoyed people are that now the AI doesn't constantly trip over itself building docks and now properly builds, and that's a *huge problem*(!!!!)

Do you often play in East Asia? If no then go drink some juice. If yes I invite you to play a game as either in Indo-China, Japan or Oriats where the goal is to become EoC legit.
Also your arguements about the Big Bad Ottomans doesn’t work. Ottomans are countered by having a lot of relatively equal powers in Europe/Middle East. Like Austria, Hungary, Mamluks, Poland-Lithuania, France, Great Britain, Prussia, Spain. If they screw up too much, relatively equal powers can strike back and carve them up. This doesn’t happen with Ming at all. If your Ottoman comparision was to be usable. Then Ming would be a surrounded by 3-5 other countries with around 60-75% the development of Ming each.

And since Paradox aren’t going to add in Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria the off coast of China. Some fixes are required.