Ming is Broken, some basic fixes are needed!

[Juggernaught]

You could threw a few tercio regiments and watch the mingplosion on earlier patches.
So yeah. contrary to previous patches, I like the current Ming more. It adds challenge and realism to playing as asian nations now.
But I agree that they should get some more negative modifiers like increased merc cost etc. when they are on low mandate.

 

[Mrakvampire]

The more I read these forums, the more I'm convinced that devs are deliberately leaving Ming unfixed to cater to chineese audience. It's a shame, really.
Ming should have been fixed 2 patches ago.

 

[bly08]

Can differiante between two people you are responding?
The Problem with all strong Nation now is that they are getting ton of money and Mercs are cheap and plenty are there.
Also all your bonuses aplly to them. (All my top 5 Nation except of me have 0 Manpower town of gold are constant at war and fill they manpower limit with mercs)
That the reason many people complain about them.
Damage reduction is irrelavant if you can flood the field with troops/mercs.
So you need something that goes more for winning a battle quicker/ or solve the merc spam.

Yes Most player could also Merc Spam, but some people just don't like it and want it changed.
Also some player want, that you can fracture Ming without spending 100 years, by slowly releasing Nations and defending them.

War score from battles caps at 40. You only need to siege down 4 forts plus some carpet sieges to 100 WS Ming in the first war. As for what players want, I'd like to be able to fracture Ottomans and PLC when I'm playing hordes. I also want 50 CCR for Manchu and 1k starting development so I can WC before 1600 every game.

It would be nice if AI Qing can form through event and be able to unite China quickly. Hopefully it could also become a bigger blob than Ming so we can see new threads about how Qing is too OP.

 

[Salix]

You just don't understand it and getting ridiculous.

The Game has a problem with mercs and money and Ming utilize it. As I said a lot of times now.

Defeating it is not Problem, if you use Mercanaries like they do. Other wise you won't carpet siege them before you run out of manpower, because they spam mercs(like all major powers. In my game it would be Rev. France, Ottomans, Ming, PLC, Scandinavia, GB(all have 0 manpower all the time and attack other nation with tons of mercs).

I never player a horde, so I don't know where you come from. Since MOH I mostly play Japan have as much Development as Ming only restricted on the Japan region, Before they mercplosion I like to vassalize Korea. I never wanted and tried a World conquest, because I personally don't like it. I play the game to have fun and mostly not for achievements.
I also like that Ming is quite strong, but I also think it should decline if pressured enough, I also think that with every Empire that is too large, AI or player made should crumble easier. It is now so ridiculous easy make giantic Empires.
Low unrest, autonomy and easily accepting cultures and weak Rebels are a problem.

It would be nice if Quing would take over, that would be very nice to see, but Manchu tribes seize to exit in the first 100 years, because of Korea or other neighbors.
That's the reason I didn't want to debuff the Mandat to much(for a strong Quing), but some things must be changed if the merc spam/money is not solved.

I think you getting unreasonable, because you want this game to have an "endboss".

So you are telling me everything is fine with those Nation? With the wealth and Mercanaries around?

I proposed my Solution. If you want Ming to be your big endboss propose a Sollution.

 

[bly08]

I don't care about having an endboss, I just think you're exaggerating the effects of mercspam and the overall OPness of Ming. In my current run on 1.23 I've fought Ming twice before 1550 and they've had around 60 mercs each time. This is about the same as on 1.22. Even if they can afford 20 more mercs do you honestly think that requires changing the mandate bonuses just so people who run 25k stacks into 40k can win their battles?

You say you run out of manpower, the obvious answer would be to get more manpower and more money before fighting Ming. You're complaining how easy it is to blob yet you're whining about changes that make blobbing harder.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think the penalty should be changed. Damage recieving is only important, if you use manpower. While I play against Ming it is constantly at zero Manpower. And money is out of Hand at this game so it doesn't bother either.
I think moral reduction would be the way to go or the money/merc Problem ingame will be fixed

Damage received does have a large impact on morale, and after the first phase of combat also on damage dealt. Damaged regiments do less damage the weaker they are. In a proper pitched battle between 40 width units with artillery support, the front lines will break much faster for 0 mandate troops. With something like the 25 vs 40 example, initial damage is neutered giving them more opportunity to slap your troops around with free hits + keeping front line viable instead.

Late game Ming is no different from other large late game empires. For the purposes of fighting them, you assume they have infinite money (you can deplete it, but it's not worth your time in either 1.22 or 1.23 especially with revanchism). These wars are won via some combination of chaining superiority to 40% war score from battles and/or simply sieging down forts and preventing them from sieging down anything you care about. Then you prioritize taking all the forts you can in the peace deal and go in on them again.

Ming is vulnerable because it will keep joining if you declare on tributaries. You can use this to make a 15 year truce into a 5 year truce, or you can simply use the tributary war score to take more land off Ming. With stuff like imperialism or revolution CB + diplomatic, you can easily take > 100% OE in < 1 year despite the non-cobelligerent penalty and chain them out of existence in short order. A similar move works on HRE emperors, though they tend to get full annexed a bit faster.

All that said, the movement rules wrt tributaries are broken, and the picture I showed earlier in this thread where I wound up fighting "blue" troops is ridiculous. The tributary system certainly needs some work still.

 

[Sukramo]

The more I read these forums, the more I'm convinced that devs are deliberately leaving Ming unfixed to cater to chineese audience. It's a shame, really.
Ming should have been fixed 2 patches ago.

Seeing the current add for Hearts of Iron China themed DLC and CK2s Jade Dragon, I do agree with you. Paradox wants to tap into the Chinese market, nothing wrong with that. But when that desire results in unbalanced gameplay we do have a problem. And we do.

At the very least we need these fixes:

-Tributaries now send 50% less value of any type to the Celestrial Empire.
-Tributaries can no longer be used to train troops.
-Tributaries now instantly break away at 0 Mandate.

-Global Trade can now only spawn with someone who is active in atleast two continents. (I mean really!)

-Low Mandate now also results in higher revolt risk, down to +10 revolt risk at 0 Mandate.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Seeing the current add for Hearts of Iron China themed DLC and CK2s Jade Dragon, I do agree with you. Paradox wants to tap into the Chinese market, nothing wrong with that. But when that desire results in unbalanced gameplay we do have a problem. And we do.

At the very least we need these fixes:

-Tributaries now send 50% less value of any type to the Celestrial Empire.
-Tributaries can no longer be used to train troops.
-Tributaries now instantly break away at 0 Mandate.

-Global Trade can now only spawn with someone who is active in atleast two continents. (I mean really!)

-Low Mandate now also results in higher revolt risk, down to +10 revolt risk at 0 Mandate.

How about erasing Ming from the map at the start of the game? Would that suffice for you? What you are proposing simply delays it a bit so why not get it over with right at the very beginning? Like I said before it is extremely easy to make Ming hit 0 Mandate as any player (...) that borders Ming with his/her entire development connected to the border province (s). Under the rules you are proposing no one in their right mind would attack Ming, the best course of action would be to wait for Ming to explode and then defeat the arising tags in very quick , successive wars. The aftermath would be a very quick conquest of China without even needing to truce break.
For Ming players what you propose will make the experience extremely boring at best and a huge chore at worst. As it is Ming is already pretty boring to play as without enhanced gameplay due to all the waiting for mandate points to pass the reforms and the huge penalties for bordering someone big that does not accept to become a tributary diplomatically (...), etc. etc. etc.

Maybe next time try to attack them a "bit" sooner, at a time when they do not have 300k in the bank?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How about erasing Ming from the map at the start of the game? Would that suffice for you? What you are proposing simply delays it a bit so why not get it over with right at the very beginning? Like I said before it is extremely easy to make Ming hit 0 Mandate as any player (...) that borders Ming with his/her entire development connected to the border province (s). Under the rules you are proposing no one in their right mind would attack Ming, the best course of action would be to wait for Ming to explode and then defeat the arising tags in very quick , successive wars. The aftermath would be a very quick conquest of China without even needing to truce break.
For Ming players what you propose will make the experience extremely boring at best and a huge chore at worst. As it is Ming is already pretty boring to play as without enhanced gameplay due to all the waiting for mandate points to pass the reforms and the huge penalties for bordering someone big that does not accept to become a tributary diplomatically (...), etc. etc. etc.

Maybe next time try to attack them a "bit" sooner, at a time when they do not have 300k in the bank?

It's not like 300k in Ming's bank is actually difficult to deal with when you're fighting 0 mandate troops. Of the large nations to chip down when pursuing 1 tag, Ming is one of my lower priorities. Good CB + absolutism + diplomatic rakes away their land and other large nations like France/Spain/Ottomans/Russia don't have a large supply of nations you can use to pull them back into war any time you like to take more land. With France you're probably waiting out a 15 year truce at least once, but not for Ming unless you want to do so.

 

[Yxklyx]

The more I read these forums, the more I'm convinced that devs are deliberately leaving Ming unfixed to cater to chineese audience. It's a shame, really.
Ming should have been fixed 2 patches ago.

...but he's been greatly nerfed in the latest patch. He actually can implode now and even cease to exist.

 

[Sukramo]

How about erasing Ming from the map at the start of the game? Would that suffice for you? What you are proposing simply delays it a bit so why not get it over with right at the very beginning? Like I said before it is extremely easy to make Ming hit 0 Mandate as any player (...) that borders Ming with his/her entire development connected to the border province (s). Under the rules you are proposing no one in their right mind would attack Ming, the best course of action would be to wait for Ming to explode and then defeat the arising tags in very quick , successive wars. The aftermath would be a very quick conquest of China without even needing to truce break.
For Ming players what you propose will make the experience extremely boring at best and a huge chore at worst. As it is Ming is already pretty boring to play as without enhanced gameplay due to all the waiting for mandate points to pass the reforms and the huge penalties for bordering someone big that does not accept to become a tributary diplomatically (...), etc. etc. etc.

Maybe next time try to attack them a "bit" sooner, at a time when they do not have 300k in the bank?

Very nice strawman. Impressive.

Come back when you are ready to treat other opinions seriously and with respect so we can have a reasonable debate on what function Ming should have in the game and how to reasonably nerf him to that fair state.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

It's not like 300k in Ming's bank is actually difficult to deal with when you're fighting 0 mandate troops. Of the large nations to chip down when pursuing 1 tag, Ming is one of my lower priorities. Good CB + absolutism + diplomatic rakes away their land and other large nations like France/Spain/Ottomans/Russia don't have a large supply of nations you can use to pull them back into war any time you like to take more land. With France you're probably waiting out a 15 year truce at least once, but not for Ming unless you want to do so.

No it is not but with that amount of money in the bank Ming can keep recruiting mercenaries ad aeternum without going bankrupt; I am guessing this is what annoyed the OP the most and thus this thread. IMO he wants to go after several mechanics that have very little to do with the perceived problem.
WRT to the truce breaks keep in mind that many of my WCs are basically over before absolutism comes along so I usually do lots of truce breaks to not waste any time (...)

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Very nice strawman. Impressive.

Come back when you are ready to treat other opinions seriously and with respect so we can have a reasonable debate on what function Ming should have in the game and how to reasonably nerf him to that fair state.

Actually I did respect your opinion and this is why I did not start my reply with a blunt and pragmatic "I am sorry but you don´t have any clue know what you are saying". Needless to say it was not a strawman, what you are proposing is a sure fire way for the player to dismantle Ming simply by bordering him as any moderately blobbed country. If you can´t understand this IDK what else to say to you besides to see it for yourself (ie give Ming a perma +10 unrest to see what happens).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No it is not but with that amount of money in the bank Ming can keep recruiting mercenaries ad aeternum without going bankrupt; I am guessing this is what annoyed the OP the most and thus this thread. IMO he wants to go after several mechanics that have very little to do with the perceived problem.
WRT to the truce breaks keep in mind that many of my WCs are basically over before absolutism comes along so I usually do lots of truce breaks to not waste any time (...)

Yes, but you push for records, not simple WC .

My point is that thanks to loans and revanchism any decently large AI has functionally unlimited money (if you actually get it to use up its money enough to bankrupt, something went very wrong in that war). It's something we're generally playing around anyway, and strange to see assigned as a complaint only to Ming. In this regard, Ming is only exceptional for being large on day 0 and for being faster to dismantle once you get started on them.

I think people are still pining for the old days when Ming really was thermonuclear with low mandate (+10 unrest was a thing then IIRC) but was pretty RNG based. I don't miss the old Ming (though on-arrival looting was lulzy in early patches). It was annoying and could rival you with >3x development/standing army and harass constantly. The present tributary model is buggy and needs fixing but is conceptually superior.

 

[Salix]

About the more damged taken, I forgot about it thanks. My Problem is not beating him. All that I want is a normal war with them. One where you beat his armies, siege him down after that. Not a fucking massacre until my troop pool is empty. As it is now at 1750 I need 300K troops, which constantly bash his troops, while I siege something. Yeah I know I could use Mercs, or use the exploit, but I don't want to.

Additionally I pirate his Income node pretty hard. 90% Pirates(200 light ships). his income only 25 ducats from trade, but it doesn't matter, because he has enough money from the other sources.
He can rebuild his fleet all the time I completly destroy it

Rebells are also a joke, but that's for every bigger Nation.

Also reducing Mandate or Meritocracy does has not huge effects outside War and Espionage.
The Mandate generating system is weird. All neighbours are accounted except those that only borded the same sea tile, wich is normally counted as bordering.

Another funny thing happen in my Game. In the West we have powerful Bengal, as strong as Ming. The did Border. Ming got a massive Mandate reduction. After a war they didn't Border because Bengal took territory and a Tributary is in between now. He also lost two Tributaries, one got eaten the other lost the status. But now Ming is gaining a lot Mandate.

I don't have the Problem that Ming is gaining Mandate again, but that loosing some provinces, two tributaries, doesn't have effect is strange.

 

[ywxiao]

About the more damged taken, I forgot about it thanks. My Problem is not beating him. All that I want is a normal war with them. One where you beat his armies, siege him down after that. Not a fucking massacre until my troop pool is empty. As it is now at 1750 I need 300K troops, which constantly bash his troops, while I siege something. Yeah I know I could use Mercs, or use the exploit, but I don't want to.

Additionally I pirate his Income node pretty hard. 90% Pirates(200 light ships). his income only 25 ducats from trade, but it doesn't matter, because he has enough money from the other sources.
He can rebuild his fleet all the time I completly destroy it

Rebells are also a joke, but that's for every bigger Nation.

Also reducing Mandate or Meritocracy does has not huge effects outside War and Espionage.
The Mandate generating system is weird. All neighbours are accounted except those that only borded the same sea tile, wich is normally counted as bordering.

Another funny thing happen in my Game. In the West we have powerful Bengal, as strong as Ming. The did Border. Ming got a massive Mandate reduction. After a war they didn't Border because Bengal took territory and a Tributary is in between now. He also lost two Tributaries, one got eaten the other lost the status. But now Ming is gaining a lot Mandate.

I don't have the Problem that Ming is gaining Mandate again, but that loosing some provinces, two tributaries, doesn't have effect is strange.

Loan size is from development, that's not a Ming only problem.

Infinite mercs also not a Ming only problem.

Rebels no threat to bigger nations also not a Ming only problem.

How is reducing Mandate or Meritocracy going to solve those issues?

Ming is already the weakest of the big nations late game, and there is a very easy way to beat them. Especially in VH where every region blobs into 1 or 2 large nations Ming gets killed by AI very often because of celestial mechanics. You are not looking at this objectively. Why don't you try to bankrupt Ottomans on vh mode in a single war and tell me how long it took you.

Where does the Mingsplosion come from anyways? It is a made up thing because it's hard to model China.

Previous dynasty such as Song lost large amount of land, yet it was still stable and the richest nation by far. The height of Southern Song's GDP was between $1300 to $2500, in the range of post industrialized England.

Loss of Mandate making your army paper and horde disasters are also made up things. Ming has nearly 2 million troops, roughly 500k-600k well funded and equipped armies were not paper regardless of mandate. The rest of the 1.2 million were always paper, in fact some only existed on paper since the troops already desserted long ago.

Ming fractured into PRETENDER rebels after the Emperor committed suicide and the crown prince also died, lead by Ming princes, not separatist rebels. The Chinese had really gotten over separatists a thousand years ago. Several Ming tributaries did allow access and provide military support for Ming princes, paid by promises.

I don't see any justification in your reasoning that cannot be better applied to one of several other nations who are worse offenders. Your supposed fix has very little basis on both game play and history.

 

[Rocketskates]

Probably because the limitations of the AI, ive never seen a russian AI take interest in China, always just the west.

 

[bly08]

Some suggestions for allowing AI Qing to form without buffing player Manchu too much:

1. Decrease the war score cost for taking mandate for Manchu or hordes only. Mandate mechanic is terrible for the player to take so it wouldn't make a difference.

2. Less important, change the province requirements or have Xilingol flip to Manchu via rebels or event. AI Manchu would never be able to take it otherwise.

3. Tell AI Manchu to never engage Korea in mountains or decrease Korea's starting force limit.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

About the more damged taken, I forgot about it thanks. My Problem is not beating him. All that I want is a normal war with them. One where you beat his armies, siege him down after that.

That's just not how wars vs 1000+ development AIs (or humans for that matter) work in this game. By design too, given how forts and merc pools function. Siege while dealing with threat of opponent army is very much part of the design of pitched wars between large nations.

Ming is rarely willing to engage full combat width of infantry + siege on flatland forts when their mandate is low, and that combination includes its capital. You do not need an "exploit" to strip their forts with this war score then chain them down by declaring on tributaries.

 

[Gnostek]

Most of the issues that make ming "ahistorically strong" are adressed by...playing a horde!

It's curious how if you, as history went down, conquer Ming as a horde, they get less morale, less tributaries, more unrest... as history went down, too!

If you want some ahistorical outcome, like Delhi conquering china, NEVER use history as an argument.

Also, hordes are the only real way to have fun in this "monarch point simulator 2.0"