Ming is Broken, some basic fixes are needed!

[Sukramo]

Ok, so this is my Ibadi Third Way run. It's going well and I decided to see how strong Ming is. The result?

MING'S POWER LEVEL IS OVER 9000!

Make no mistake, I'am beating him easily in my game. But the problem is how laughable stable Ming is and overall crazy things are going on. These include:

-Ming being able to train mercs from his Tributaries just flat out needs to go. I've occupied all his land and he keeps building hundreds of thousands of men from Korea and Japan that I cant even siege. I've killed half a million mercs alone from Korea. FIX THIS, ITS BROKEN!

-Ming retreating into his tributaries is also quite silly. It's nigh unpredicable to know where he will end up and I've seen him retreat in cirecles over half of China!

-Being at 0 Mandate may make his units abit worse, but its not close to enogh. Being at 0 Mandate needs to give ALOT of revolt risk. It shouldnt take 5 years at 20 War exhausing and 0 mandate for rebels to start spawning.....

-Ming being ahead in tech of everyone for most of the game. I've seen him tech up mil at absurd ahead in time, where it would cost me 1000+ points to tech.

-Ming spawning 2 Institutions while doing.....nothing all game. He got both Manefactories and Global Trade while just sitting on his ass, not even colonizing. How exactly is he a champion of global trade when never going outside China? Institutions in general need an overhaul, its far too easy for Ming to get fully embraced Enlightenment in 1710. Historical accuracy? What is that?

-Why on earth is Ming not bankrupt while fielding 141 mercs currently with no econmic base of any kind? Where is his treasury even located? Who are these half a million mercs that want to fight for a dead Empire?? What I'm saying is, it needs to be far easier to go bankrupt.

-Ming's tributaries should auto break away when he's at 0 Mandate and/or dead. Right now they have 5-ish % with Korea at 6% after I killed 1 Million men. Make Tributaries actually want to be free!

And those were my points. Stupid Ming!

 

[PhoenixG]

-Ming spawning 2 Institutions while doing.....nothing all game. He got both Manefactories and Global Trade while just sitting on his ass, not even colonizing. How exactly is he a champion of global trade when never going outside China? Institutions in general need an overhaul, its far too easy for Ming to get fully embraced Enlightenment in 1710. Historical accuracy? What is that?

-Why on earth is Ming not bankrupt while fielding 141 mercs currently with no econmic base of any kind? Where is his treasury even located? Who are these half a million mercs that want to fight for a dead Empire?? What I'm saying is, it needs to be far easier to go bankrupt.

This show how rich chinese clay is, and with manufacturies...

With rich land and no other things to spend on, they really are the bank of China. In my last game, Austria had more than 10K banked

 

[MateuszNH]

chinese clay is rich but manchu taking over is historical fact and it is kinda hard with having historical borders to fight ming.

 

[Sukramo]

This show how rich chinese clay is, and with manufacturies...

With rich land and no other things to spend on, they really are the bank of China. In my last game, Austria had more than 10K banked

"Rich" does not even begin to cover it. I ended the war after killing 1.6 Million men, the vast majority of them (90%+) mercs. Even with admin ideas, those mercs must have cost an absolute fortune since he had no income of any kind for 15 years, and I ended the war by taking the max amount in warscore which came to 10k ducats. He STILL did not go bankrupt after all that. The ledger was probably bugged but it seemed to imply he had 250k ducats for the entire war. There is no way he can ever run out of money if that is true.

Paradox may have nerfed mercs abit with professionlism but it's still way out of control to just spam them over and over.

My biggest gripe after the merc madness is that 0 Mandate is mostly pointless. Yes it helps, but even with 4 Military ideas (Quantiity, Offensive, Defensive and Quality), max absolutism, max professionalism and awesome 3 star leaders, even with all that, if I attack 45 of his guys with 25 of mine, he's probably winning that fight. While taking 50% more damage from shock. I mean, what? Also trololol 25% less goods produced from low Mandate? Why is that even a thing? It means nothing to him.

At 0 mandate and 20 WE, Ming should explode like Barad-dûr and his Orcs should flee for his lives. That does not happen, he can keep fighting for decades instead.

 

[ahyangyi]

I agree with most of your points, OP.

At 0 mandate and 20 WE, Ming should explode like Barad-dûr and his Orcs should flee for his lives. That does not happen, he can keep fighting for decades instead.

However, I wish you choose your wording more carefully before (perhaps mistakenly) drawing an analogy between Chinese and Orcs.

 

[durbal]

I agree with most of your points, OP.



However, I wish you choose your wording more carefully before (perhaps mistakenly) drawing an analogy between Chinese and Orcs.

He didn’t...unless Barad-dur is Chinese or something.

 

[makaramus]

I agree with most of your points, OP.



However, I wish you choose your wording more carefully before (perhaps mistakenly) drawing an analogy between Chinese and Orcs.

well...i doubt if it was like what you said...

 

[Reaktans]

Also Ming's tributaries sieging down rebel occupied provinces, fighting with rebels. This shouldn't be allowed i think.

 

[makaramus]

Also Ming's tributaries sieging down rebel occupied provinces, fighting with rebels. This shouldn't be allowed i think.

this.... this is actually most common reason why ming never explodes because tributaries helping him

Auto military access should be removed from tributaries... but they should be willing to give military access to eachother when needed . and ai should not care about being well of his overlord since he can allways break free if he belive not needed anymore (overlord should care althought because rich tributary means more income

 

[Sukramo]

I agree with most of your points, OP.



However, I wish you choose your wording more carefully before (perhaps mistakenly) drawing an analogy between Chinese and Orcs.

No, I don't belive Chinese are Orcs. Just wanting to see the Ming Empire collapse in a spectacular manner and his armies utterly beaten. Lord of the rings is a good visual of what I want happening to his armies.

Also Ming's tributaries sieging down rebel occupied provinces, fighting with rebels. This shouldn't be allowed i think.

Now that you mention it, I did see this happen but only a little bit since most had Revolutionaries to deal with themselves. It is still indeed unbalanced.

 

[ShahanShah]

Complaining about Ming is entirely pointless, simply due to the fact that ever since post MoH Paradox still haven't fixed them and honestly I don't see them doing it any time soon. A simple unrest increase from mandate would really shake things up in the Far East.

 

[SaucyBaron]

Meh Ming is still a Joke by the time the player gets to fighting them (unless you are playing in east Asia in which case you just eat all his tributaries then break agreement as he passes a reform).

 

[Ninking]

I agree. Ming is ridiculously overpowered. They reason that it should be so because it historically was a mammoth, but it must be the only country in the game which gets to be massively OP for "historic reasons".

There are so many things which should be done Ming, e.g:

- The "Force Tributary" CB needs to be nerfed so that they can only do what it name says, instead of having access to all peace options for less cost than a Claim CB.

- More repeating Disasters specific for a Confucian Celestial Government. A king under the age of 20 should trigger internal conflicts.

 

[KimmelZhang123]

again, paradox destoried the east asian game by issuing a DLC that focus on east asia, and for some reason, they just refuse to fix the obvious problem. And every time some one brings this issue up, some nationalists just become extremely salty and start to be rude to everyone. And when you point out the rude commenters who mostly piriate all the dlcs that paradox has been published, guess what, paradox start to defend them and delete all the other comments that oppose it.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Ever since MoH Ming has been stupidly overpowered. Makes playing Manchu-into-Qing/Oriat-or-Mongolia-into-Yuan nightmarish. Loosing the Mandate should be way bigger than just the pathetic penalties they get for a few measly 20 years. -1 legitimacy is largely meaningless. +50 subject liberty desire is pathetic since no nation dares to break tributary agreements. +10 unrest is useless since Ming likely has saved up a lot of monarch points due to being behind tech allowing them to easily to go back up to +3 stability, along with the fact Ming can afford 200k troops + upwards of 50k-150k mecenaries aka rebels don't stand a chance due to sheer weights of numbers. You might have been able to get something out of -10% discipline if not for the fact you would have to truce break in order to get any usage out of it.

There is also the fact that taking the Mandate magically makes Mings troops not shit anymore, in other words taking the Mandate makes them harder to fight. Whereas you (since Ming keeps all their tributaries) are likely low on Mandate and now your troops are made out of paper. Also taking the Mandate will likely make your nation experience the joy of having several years of unrest and turmoil (not to mention if you are a Horde nation you likely have to restructure your armies away from over reliance on cavalry) due you likely being Confucian now. Which causes you to wait out several decades waiting for harmonization while your old Tengri/Buddhist provinces rebel due to you having like 25% religious unity.

I have several times suggested these changes:
Upon gaining the Mandate:
Gain harmonization with your old religion (Pagan if Tengri, your brand of Buddhist if such. Qing gets this actually but not other nations because fuck you that's why).

Upon loosing the Mandate:
Gain +20 unrest for 20 years.
-6 stability.
Loose all legitimacy.
Loose all stored monarch power.
Loose all stored money.
Loose all subjects (including tributaries so the new Emperor of China can grab some tributaries so his mandate doesn't tank after a few years).

Is this excessively harsh? Yes. But only because it requires excessive harshness to take down Ming.

 

[makaramus]

Ever since MoH Ming has been stupidly overpowered. Makes playing Manchu-into-Qing/Oriat-or-Mongolia-into-Yuan nightmarish. Loosing the Mandate should be way bigger than just the pathetic penalties they get for a few measly 20 years. -1 legitimacy is largely meaningless. +50 subject liberty desire is pathetic since no nation dares to break tributary agreements. +10 unrest is useless since Ming likely has saved up a lot of monarch points due to being behind tech allowing them to easily to go back up to +3 stability, along with the fact Ming can afford 200k troops + upwards of 50k-150k mecenaries aka rebels don't stand a chance due to sheer weights of numbers. You might have been able to get something out of -10% discipline if not for the fact you would have to truce break in order to get any usage out of it.

There is also the fact that taking the Mandate magically makes Mings troops not shit anymore, in other words taking the Mandate makes them harder to fight. Whereas you (since Ming keeps all their tributaries) are likely low on Mandate and now your troops are made out of paper. Also taking the Mandate will likely make your nation experience the joy of having several years of unrest and turmoil (not to mention if you are a Horde nation you likely have to restructure your armies away from over reliance on cavalry) due you likely being Confucian now. Which causes you to wait out several decades waiting for harmonization while your old Tengri/Buddhist provinces rebel due to you having like 25% religious unity.

I have several times suggested these changes:
Upon gaining the Mandate:
Gain harmonization with your old religion (Pagan if Tengri, your brand of Buddhist if such. Qing gets this actually but not other nations because fuck you that's why).

Upon loosing the Mandate:
Gain +20 unrest for 20 years.
-6 stability.
Loose all legitimacy.
Loose all stored monarch power.
Loose all stored money.
Loose all subjects (including tributaries so the new Emperor of China can grab some tributaries so his mandate doesn't tank after a few years).

Is this excessively harsh? Yes. But only because it requires excessive harshness to take down Ming.

ohoooo wait there why losing money? I understood many things (and ming doesnt use legimicy but I think I understand what you mean)
lose all subjects can be bit harsh too but here is the thing: Low mandate should trigger an event to tributaries. this event has %90 chance to trigger every year (event chance checked moment conditions are done not after a year)
event chooses:
a)break free from ming and add truce
b)-1 stab hit
ai %90 chance picks first choose unless korea. korea will never get this event(come now... let him stay with his little buddy )

Ming should not lose money he has! But at low mandate everyting (yes everyting! literally) will cost 8 times more!

also you are being too harsh! this conditions will also cripple new emperor of china coming after ming since they will not handle mandate moment they take it O_O

 

[Manic Eskimo]

It's being ahead of European powers in tech that's the biggest problem imo. It's a problem not just for Ming but all across asia and the middle east. I think tech cost needs to be increased.

 

[makaramus]

It's being ahead of European powers in tech that's the biggest problem imo. It's a problem not just for Ming but all across asia and the middle east. I think tech cost needs to be increased.

tributary monarch points must be removed ming is only ahead because of this :/

 

[Sukramo]

tributary monarch points must be removed ming is only ahead because of this :/

Limiting it to only gold/manpower would make him even more insanely rich and unable to bankrupt than he already is. I think a good start would be to halve the amount of value tributaries gives in all types of tribute. He's clearly getting far too much of everything.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

ohoooo wait there why losing money? I understood many things (and ming doesnt use legimicy but I think I understand what you mean)
lose all subjects can be bit harsh too but here is the thing: Low mandate should trigger an event to tributaries. this event has %90 chance to trigger every year (event chance checked moment conditions are done not after a year)
event chooses:
a)break free from ming and add truce
b)-1 stab hit
ai %90 chance picks first choose unless korea. korea will never get this event(come now... let him stay with his little buddy )

Ming should not lose money he has! But at low mandate everyting (yes everyting! literally) will cost 8 times more!

also you are being too harsh! this conditions will also cripple new emperor of china coming after ming since they will not handle mandate moment they take it O_O

1. Upon loosing the Mandate Ming becomes a normal despotic monarchy and uses normal legitimacy. This was the legitimacy I was referring to.
2. The event would essentially do the same thing, except it would be require the play to sit and wait for tributaries to break free. Also hoping that it does not take so long that the truces run out. Because in that case Ming will simply begin to wage war to enforce tributary status again. I do not see why Korea would be more keen to stay with Ming.
3. The loss of money is partially to prevent Ming crushing every rebel in sight by hiring 150k mercenaries.
4. Upon gaining the Mandate a series of events kick in that allows to the player to get around 75% Mandate. If Ming looses all their tributaries, they player will be able to acquire enough tributaries diplomatically to stabilize mandate loss. This is why it is crucial for Ming to loose all tributary subjects.