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Will Steel

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Here's an idea:
Instead of countrywide maluses or whatever, turn Ming into an HRE style system with two kinds of member states. Tributaries would pay you dividends in exchange for your protection while duchies (for lack of a better name) are like extensions of your state, giving you a small portion of their taxes (to simulate corruption) and either all or most of their manpower and allow you to recruit in their territory (or possibly they don't do either and you would instead have to rely on a swarm of potentially disloyal vassals to handle battles for you, like I understand [possibly erroneously, Asia is not my forte] China historically did) and don't take a relation slot, but with potentially a high amount of unrest or disloyalty to further the idea of mostly autonomous local governments. That way you could still have a strong central area but a vast area of inefficient microstates composing the rest of your empire. To prevent abuse of the system and just annexing them or conquering most territory yourself they could be unannexable, and if you take X amount of territory in a contiguous area it would force you to create and release a new duchy. Sort of like local colonial nations. Maybe westernizing would make you absorb them like the HRE reforms do. Or maybe this is a stupid idea, I don't really know.

But this would be so wrong. Ming was a thoroughly centralized empire with tight control on the provinces, more so than any Chinese Imperial Dynasty to date.

Representing it as a splintered, decentralized empire in the fashion of HRE or even just by itself, would not only be completely ahistorical but also break it and make no sense.

Imagine if France, England and Castile were depicted as a coalition of counts and dukes, just with a
'ruler' faction.
 
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ARASHI

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Ming really needed those stupid handicaps removed and TBH it is still not as strong as BBB. In fact Ming is still weak until it westernizes.

Ming becomes strong only if it manages to not get shattered into a zillion pieces of ahistoric nations before or during westernization due to rebels and what not.

Just look at the development/province ratio. Ming starts at a D/P ratio of around 11 but due to the 50% autonomy debuff it has an effective D/P ratio of 5.5.

BBB has a D/P ratio of 16.

Not to mention the -33% Land forcelimit debuff. How could people even compare Ming to BBB. That's nonsense.

And please get it straight people. Paradox DIDN'T BUFF Ming. They REMOVED part of the giant NERF that was put in place.
 
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Lord_P

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Yes, since it's the only province that has 5 manpower.
You can choose between base tax or manpower increase, I believe that's what you were referring to?
Can you? It used to be a choice between base tax but the province converts to Buddhism (bad for religious unity) or lose something (idk) but no conversion.
 

kitemasaki

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Can you? It used to be a choice between base tax but the province converts to Buddhism (bad for religious unity) or lose something (idk) but no conversion.

Its a very bad option, you lose 2 base tax and province stays confucian or you let it convert and it gains 1 base tax. I don't know why anybody would choose the lose 2 base tax option.

You don't have to worry about religious unity if you go humanist and you can convert even Beijing if you take religious, stab 3 and a missionary advisor. Even temple can fire the event to convert that province back to confucian.
 

highsis

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- Added Chinese Reunification Casus Belli.

It's a great change that forum has been asking for quite some time. Glad you decided to finally put it in. I don't know how actively AIs will use this though. They should wage war non stop with this CB or it could take hundreds of years to unify China which kinda defeats purpose of this CB. We will see.
 
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Lajinn

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And another nerf to hordes, gg.

I wouldn't really say they got nerfed to much. Oirat absolutely rolls Ming, or at least that is what I observed from watching Arumba. Oirat seems to start a military tech up on Ming, and can make it a gap of two easily. He was wiping 15 stacks-20 stacks instantly, Ming had no chance whatsoever.
 

maquis196

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I'm quite glad I did my Norwegian Wood run back when Ming was a bit on the "pathetic" side. I look forward to facing the blob in the East though, Europeans didn't mess with them till quite late in the game's period iirc. Lets see if thats how it should be!
 

Sir Garnet

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New dynasties may sweep clean, but accumulated bloat, graft, corruption, self-dealing and abuses of all kinds as a matter of course. Consider the fantastic escalation of the Ming military budget over the course of the dynasty and its decline in actual effective strength vs. paper (payroll & procurement) strength. The Ming was not a paper tiger, as the Imjin War in the 1590s proved, but most of its paper strength - in some units almost all - over time became illusory, and actual "soldiers" used for labor but lacking training and proper equipment would be little more than armed rabble. With complacency in the absence of a real threat, it is only natural for an intelligent and educated ruling class to have found ways to take advantage of the opportunities presented. Vigilance and readiness in the absence of nearby threats (with the central government far away) must have seemed a waste of valuable funds and resources that could find better employment.

Autonomy is one way of representing one side of this situation, although it falls short of representing the true difficulty of raising and funding sizable armies of actual "boots on the ground" rather than the paper formations of a Ming mass militia army system that no one was motivated to preserve other than in form.
 
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Reverend Belial

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But this would be so wrong. Ming was a thoroughly centralized empire with tight control on the provinces, more so than any Chinese Imperial Dynasty to date.
Representing it as a splintered, decentralized empire in the fashion of HRE or even just by itself, would not only be completely ahistorical but also break it and make no sense.
Imagine if France, England and Castile were depicted as a coalition of counts and dukes, just with a
'ruler' faction.
Well like I said China is not my area of expertise and the idea was probably a dumb one (and now I know it's definitely). I was probably basing that off of an older model of Chinese government, or possibly a fictional one. I really can't say. Good to know though, always up for a bit of new knowledge.
 

Will Steel

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I was probably basing that off of an older model of Chinese government, or possibly a fictional one.

Well, back in 700 BC and earlier China was a feudal kingdom (Zhou Dynasty). In fact independent nominal feudal states with nominal acceptance of Zhou kings as their lords, existed until 221 BC. That is the only era where the model you suggested is possible to be applied after heavy modifications. :p
 
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Wudadi

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Well, back in 700 BC and earlier China was a feudal kingdom (Zhou Dynasty). In fact independent nominal feudal states with nominal acceptance of Zhou kings as their lords, existed until 221 BC. That is the only era where the model you suggested is possible to be applied after heavy modifications. :p
As a Indian, you have a good Chinese history background;)

Some reson that China can became unified dynasty a long time (Europe can unified by follow these policy)

1. Watch this video time at: 32:36 As a history teacher, he just get one point : Assimilation
(European National different concept is too strong, why they don't use culture unified concept....)
(If Chinese find America, indians will become Chinese, let them study confucianism, and choose indians peole to control America )

2. Feudal system died before Qin dynasty (221 BC). Feudal system change to lineal primogeniture system-trueborn Eldest Son.

3. Imperial Examination system....If you read confucianism books, poor people also can become officer . Breake the nobleman control.

4. unified everthing, language, ideology....................

5. Absolute monarchy.................................

6. Don’ give military commanders/generals military power start at Song dynasty (Ming and Qing follow this policy).
..............................................
..............................................

I alraly bought the ROTK 30th Anniversary edition game which include ROTK 1 - 12 (support for win7, win8, win8.1) , and I try to play ROTK 1. When I palyed ROTK 1, I even did't know that you just can use keyboard. I'm curious whether all the games can not use the mouse in 1985.
 
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Osman Pasha

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But this would be so wrong. Ming was a thoroughly centralized empire with tight control on the provinces, more so than any Chinese Imperial Dynasty to date.

Representing it as a splintered, decentralized empire in the fashion of HRE or even just by itself, would not only be completely ahistorical but also break it and make no sense.

Imagine if France, England and Castile were depicted as a coalition of counts and dukes, just with a
'ruler' faction.

Ming was centralised, but it wasn't strong (after Zheng He's expedition). The Dynasty was known for being corrupted and cruel (read about Wei Zhongxian). The military of the Ming Dynasty was pretty weak to be honest. Although they had the numbers they lacked qualities such as discipline and morale. The Mongols actually abducted one of the emperors.

For the Ming military, I think Paradox should remove the 50% autonomy modifier and the current -33% modifier as a celestial empire, but give Ming a -10% discipline and -20% morale. This should balance the game and make the game more historical.
 
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Pimp Daddy Flex

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I don't think I love the fort system more so than I do now as my playthrough as japan lol. Ming dow'd me, battle of attrition in my korean lands, they send the bulk of their armies to my home islands and it turns into a mercenary/loan rush -.-. Managed to trap them in the south island with forts before the manchu got their sh-- together and attacked in glorious Manchurian fashion! War ended with me taking a few pieces of land, which is still blowing my mind considering how much of a juggernaut they were. And now I get to see them fight a rebellion with no manpower, gold and a single loan unit.


So glad I pulled an all nighter
 

pheonicia

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Would it be possible for someone to run 100 - 300 observer games of EU4 just to see how often Ming actually collapses and the reasons why? This would certainly give us and paradox a good place to look at Ming's actual performance post buffs.
 

Guardian54

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I'm sure this will amaze you, but I preferred 1.11.4 Ming to post-CS Ming

Why? Because diplo-vassalization wasn't broken back then and I could actually vassalize Hsenwi and then Pegu. I'd cut distance to Pegu by vassalizing Hsenwi, get a defensive alliance attitude instead of neutral, get royal marriage, done without siccing my army on them. Then I could, after diplo-annexing Hsenwi (if using diplo focus, burn the extra points) while running +2 rep advisor and diplo focus (the +2 rep has to be +1 or +2, with a +3 admin advisor and maybe a +1 Grand Captain to cut costs, alternatively, focus Admin with a +2/3 admin and a +3 diplo) diplo-annex Pegu roughly in time for my first Idea, Exploration with Tech 3 Diplo (160 colony range) to jump straight to the Andamans, then Mahe, northern Madagascar, fabricate a claim on the locals' nearest the middle of the southernmost seazone your province touches (idiotic game range calculations...), attack them for it, core it (make sure you're reasonably sure it can be reached with 240 colony range from Mahe though), then jump south to Cape or close by, take Cape and then colonize as far north as you cal (likely just south of Kongo), then it's 2-3 more colonies (Whydat, perhaps, and then Gold Coast or wherever that natural harbour is, though perhaps AFTER popping one down near Portugal--Castile attacked me in my newest Ironman, ugh... Portugal's never done that...)

In reality Ming tried to expand but was beaten back every time as they could not afford the cost of the army in the game you make positive income while having a powerful army, that seldom happened in real life.

The Ming Army had serious training and morale problems. They were, however, far more of a horde than the Europeans could even comprehend at this time and if the general could encourage his men and rally morale they overrun everything in their way like a human tsunami.

Discipline and morale was so bad that Tumu was, by EU4 terms, a 20 stack of Oirat under Esen Taishi (yes, THAT guy) beating a 500-stack of Ming peasants.

The professional army however managed to hold Beijin well enough under the control of the Generals faction, after overthrowing the Eunuchs that had caused the disaster at Tumu.

I read somewhere (forgot where; so not credible!), that a lot of people in china did shenanigans like 'donating' (of course they kept it de facto) their land to court-eunuchs or temples, which were tax-exempt.
An autonomy floor seems perfect as an abstraction to me.

...That sounds awfully like the US of A to me, "donation" tax breaks and tax shelters...

The Ming also closed their borders, banned long range trade missions, suffered hyperinflation in the 1440's and beyond, levied oppressive taxes on the peasants that drove many of them to become Wokou, worsening the strain on their already selective trade and tribute, stagnated technologically and ideologically due to the reactionary and elitist Confucian bureaucracy and the emphasis on ancestor worship and traditional Chinese philosophy, failed to expand or make practical use of any of the technological innovations their predecessors had made, wasted massive amounts of money and lives on an impractical defense that in the end was overcome by bribery, and stifled social mobility at any chance they could. They were centralized, yes, but far from efficient (or competent, primarily in their latter days), and though the dynasty collapsing is not a reflection of their rule, it was a culmination of all their failings combined with a series of disastrous wars, and most historians will also be quick to point out those many failings in the midst of their triumphs as well.

Sounds like Murica... cept the long range trade thing, let's see...
Xenophobia (build a fence against Mexico!), neglecting domestic manufacturing and hard material productivity, suffering a continued economic slump, levying taxes on only people least able to afford it and driving many into the prison system, worsening the strain on the already grossly selectively enforced legal system (rich kid kills 4 people with his car, gets let off cause "affluenza"), stagnating ideologically due to the reactionary and elitist fundamentalist and plutocratic movements colluding with emphasis on religion and traditional "family values", failing to expand or make practical use of many of their own innovations to cut costs (the military hardware designing is obscenely expensive. I swear I could design a better general purpose vehicle than that cancelled GCV program from 2009 to 2014 and which cost around 1 billion. I only need a computer, a box of paper, data on different materials and the current range of commercially avaialble engines, and a single year to work on learning automotives such as gearboxes and such before assembling the design in the last month--and waiting for them to build it to undergo trials), is stifling social mobility by creating an aristocracy by cutting estate taxes over the past decades. They are nominally decentralized, yes, but far, far from efficient, or competent for the most part if you look at most of Congress as anything outside a massed deployment of bribe-taking machines, and though their decline in prestige and in lead over the rest of the world is not a reflection of their ideals, it is a culmination of all their failings combined with a series of disastrous wars, and most other nations are more than quick to point out these many failings (especially the failing of never correcting their mistakes, starting with Bush Sr., Mr. "I'm not an apologize for America type of guy") in the midst of their triumphs as well.

Yeah, but once you do reform you get ridiculously good bonuses. It balances out.

Agreed, playing my Oirat Ironman with Admin Ideas, Claim and the horde ideas meant -75% coring cost before administrative efficiency. Now if I played with non-Ironman player bonuses... I don't even have to take Administrative Ideas, really, especailyl since you abolish the coring cost to equal base tax for colonies with -25, -25 and -50...

Oirats start with a 5 shock 4 maneuver general right? also all the non mountain areas give 25% shock bonus with the patch that fixed it.

a 20 Oirat Troop stack should be able to rout a 30 unit stack of ming units at 1444.

Historically, they routed a 500 unit Ming stack, though the latter was split up over several provinces and commanded by a -5/-5/-5/-5 Eunuch, before the shattered retreat mechanics we have now to evade enemy one-province pursuit wipes.
 
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joe9594

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What is honestly the point of insulting america?
I mean I am not american and not really insulted by it but so many people do it and they all kind of just start to sound like a broken record.
Also it starts flame wars that no one wants to be in and destroys interesting threads.
 
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