MING: INWARD PERFECTION IS GONE.

[Granite]

50% autonomy means absolutely nothing they are still extremely powerful. How is the Manchu conquest even possible now? Do you seriously have to westernize as Manchu first in order to beat Ming???

Or, you know, you could do something silly like waiting for the Ming to become weak before attacking them like the Manchu actually did...

 

[toroltao]

Or, you know, you could do something silly like waiting for the Ming to become weak before attacking them like the Manchu actually did...

Not weak enough. Nurhaci died in battle.

 

[Granite]

Not weak enough. Nurhaci died in battle.

Fair enough, but I was more referring to the general state of the Ming dynasty at the time. Severe famine, peasant rebellions, ongoing war with the Oirats. The Ming may have given some resistance in the end, but relative to EU4, the Qing conquered the remaining Ming territories incredibly quickly.

 

[drxero]

Here's an idea. Why not give Ming a massive wall in the North which costs them tons of money in upkeep. Less money would result in them being able to field less troops and wage less wars.

It would also give them more flavour.

It's just an idea, no idea if it actually would work.

 

[ywxiao]

The Ming also closed their borders, banned long range trade missions, suffered hyperinflation in the 1440's and beyond, levied oppressive taxes on the peasants that drove many of them to become Wokou, worsening the strain on their already selective trade and tribute, stagnated technologically and ideologically due to the reactionary and elitist Confucian bureaucracy and the emphasis on ancestor worship and traditional Chinese philosophy, failed to expand or make practical use of any of the technological innovations their predecessors had made, wasted massive amounts of money and lives on an impractical defense that in the end was overcome by bribery, and stifled social mobility at any chance they could. They were centralized, yes, but far from efficient (or competent, primarily in their latter days), and though the dynasty collapsing is not a reflection of their rule, it was a culmination of all their failings combined with a series of disastrous wars, and most historians will also be quick to point out those many failings in the midst of their triumphs as well.

Ming china after Zheng he expeditions had more pressing problems. After the Tumu crisis, the Ming emperor realized they had to secure their border and the frontier from the hordes (especially the oirats). However the efforts spent on the great wall and the increasingly corrupt military turned out to be a very costly matter, even though it did help fend off the hordes. Still, the dynasty ran into more and more economic difficulties until the arrival of europeans which spurred growth and increased trade in the empire. But again the Ming empire crumbled on the verge of bankruptcy when the little ice age, the natural disasters, the poor tax efficiency, and the imjin war drained the last resources of the empire.

Ming was never much isolated from the europeans merchants, even though they regarded them with contempt and showed little interested in importing european goods.

There are a lot of truth in these posts, a lot of it could be made into decisions or events.

For starters, the LA is somewhat of a good representation of the state of Ming during those days. Local authorities and lords held great power, some more than 50% I would say, example being the Mu Duchy. Essentially the Dali and Kunming area was under Duke Mu's control, as are most of the armies and officials there. The Emperor would tell the local authorities what needs to be done and hope they do it, much like orders given to vassals. On the other hand, some provinces closer to Beijing were clearly in the hands of the Emperor, and should not have 50%.

Ming was against trade at one point, because the first Ming Emperor considered it a dishonest profession of trying to gain money by making other people do the hard work. As such, Ming should not have any default bonuses to trade, which I'm glad to see one was removed. Ming did claim tributes, but as money was not the purpose of the expeditions, they often gifted back more than what was taken in a show of "Superiority".

Ming officials did not go with paper currency/cheques that were popularized in the Song dynasty, and instead went with silver as a standard for taxation. This was largely the problem that caused the massive inflation that was a large part of the downfall of the Ming Empire. Add an event that triggers with a choice to go with either, with bonuses or maluses and later events based on the decision.

One of the events in game was "Warriors do not read books", which is funny when it happens to Ming as it is most likely the opposite. This should be easy to remedy just for the flavor(Intellectuals do not contribute to War), maybe give it a choice of losing 20 military tradition or stability. Overall Ming should be a country that has generally low tradition, and events to get good Generals but also kill them off, especially when Eunuchs are in power.

Ming military was by no means weak when the fighting conditions were somewhat equal. The Tumu crisis did see a large Ming force defeated by a smaller Horde army, but that was due to a long chain of stupid decisions/things going wrong. A Manchurian Emperor was placed on the throne, but that was mostly due to the green standard army and other Han supporters deciding that was the better choice. Most of the fighting in the Qing conquest of Ming was done by defected Ming army, as by Manchurian accounts, Ming soldiers had a better understanding of fire arms and were better at fighting the Ming loyalists.

So as we mentioned above trade bonuses should not be included in national ideas for Ming, we should swap out ideas for trade and add artillery combat effectiveness. One of tactics Ming military adopted against the hordes was to have horse towed artillery that was armored against missiles. These chariots would be placed in formation which would protect infantry and return fire.

Ming should be given a special type of relation called Tributary, which would give a small fraction of their income in return for trade power from Ming. Ming cannot declare war on Tributaries or call Tributaries to war but are obligated to defend them(Korea starts off being one), otherwise losing prestige and maybe legitimacy. Tributaries do not cost a diplo slot.

Any country within trade range may apply to being a Tributary, and rejecting the request will have a negative effect for Celestial Empire(losing Legitimacy/prestige). This would have a diminishing penalty as the number of Tributaries increases.
This would give smaller nations around Ming a good way to avoid being attacked as losing legitimacy is lethal for Ming.

 

[Sunspawn]

If by 'fix it' you mean 'put back all the cheese and exploits', not gonna happen.

The rest is largely incoherent ranting about random patch notes that have nothing to do with Hordes. 'Justified' is not my first choice of word there.

By "fix", I mean give them at least SOME unit progression - that is the #1 ahistorical bullshit factor, far more than the looting and whatnot.

 

[Lord_P]

OK, time for a Ming game when CS rolls out.

 

[Will Steel]

Great! Especially because it was silly how inward perfection meant that there was less chance to get an heir!

Before was like Paradox said "Hey China, I heard you like to isolate yourself from the world. Here, have a dick size of 0.01 mm."

 

[joe9594]

Got to say that after thinking about these changes I dont really like them. Essentially in eu4 Ming gets immediate tech and idea cost reduction but a min autonomy floor, this suggests ming is a country that is very open to new ideas but highly decentralized. So the exact opposite of what you would think it should be. In fact I think that celestial empire bonuses would probably be much more appropriate for the USA government forms. China should have enormous power but great difficulty effectively wielding it, at the moment it is the opposite, its power is relatively small and it can reform and manage its state quite easily.

 

[cloudwasher]

I don't get all the talk of hordes needing a buff... If anything, I would have no problem with them getting a nerf. I played a game with golden horde a while back and actually found it rather overpowered if anything once you westernize. That no cost for reinforcing troops really is an insanely good idea, I'd even venture to say that in my opinion it may be the best single idea in the game. It saves you so much money and makes budgeting for war so much easier.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

I don't get all the talk of hordes needing a buff... If anything, I would have no problem with them getting a nerf. I played a game with golden horde a while back and actually found it rather overpowered if anything once you westernize. That no cost for reinforcing troops really is an insanely good idea, I'd even venture to say that in my opinion it may be the best single idea in the game. It saves you so much money and makes budgeting for war so much easier.

???

You NEVER get unit upgrades unless you reform. That's ridiculous.

 

[cloudwasher]

???

You NEVER get unit upgrades unless you reform. That's ridiculous.

Yeah, but once you do reform you get ridiculously good bonuses. It balances out.

 

[Vivi_]

About chinese "religions", people seem to don't get that confucianism and daoism were mostly philosophy. One can be buddhist and confucianist or daoist. Since confucianism and daoism are somehow opposed(1), it's unlikely that someone defines itself as both, altought I believe that people build their own philosophy and religion.

I have to admit that I learnt a lot of thing with EU3 adn EU4. I hope someday the devs will get some time to improve hinduism, buddhism, confucianism, daoism and shinto events. Because this is extrememly interesting and will probably interest the players since it influenced a lot of things : arts, warfare, religions, culture and so on.

(1) In short confucianism led to a very structured society, like we can see those days in Japan, while daoist was a liberty desire that poped up because of confucianism. In short, it's order versus liberty.

 

[Phalanx300]

Here's an idea. Why not give Ming a massive wall in the North which costs them tons of money in upkeep. Less money would result in them being able to field less troops and wage less wars.

It would also give them more flavour.

It's just an idea, no idea if it actually would work.

They pay less for forts, just create a large wall of forts at your nomad border.

 

[Vivi_]

They pay less for forts, just create a large wall of forts at your nomad border.

Hahaha nice idea! X)

 

[PiriReis]

Players generally dislike playing with a static negative modifier such as inward perfection, good decision of Paradox to remove it.

 

[Clownie]

Players generally dislike negative modifiers such as inward perfection, good decision of Paradox to remove it.

Paradox doesn't frame like that as a rule, though – note that 0% is treated as the 'default' province development cost, and temperate climate as well, meaning that most terrain and climates will be a malus.

 

[uishax]

Players generally dislike playing with a static negative modifiers such as inward perfection, good decision of Paradox to remove it.

Unlikely, difficulty settings are a 'static negative modifier' in many rpg/strategies.
Inward wasn't even a pure static modifier, as it drove players towards westernisation.

 

[Garevel]

I feel somewhat stupid right now - i played Ming, i played against Ming and i played far away from Ming. It only gets destroyed in the second "version". It never felt week, actually i never had a problem till westernization with any Horde (okey the one time, but this was me being stupid) or other asian country. If i read the posts here - Ming seems weak with the inward perfection..., i don't denied the fact its a heavy malus but...Ming felt really strong, actually i would even go as far as to compare them to the ottomans

 

[joe9594]

Ming isnt as weak as many people seem to think it is. The issue in my mind was always more that all the fractured chinese states never reunified when ming did collapse. I think that simply giving something along the lines of nationalism causus belli to all chinese states would increase the chance of china being a significant power in the long term (although not necessarily being ming) while leaving ming at a realistic strength. I mean it did collapse historically and often you would see it not collapse in game.
With inward perfection gone it will probably only rarely collapse.