MING: INWARD PERFECTION IS GONE.

[tobias.mb]

That said, didn't Ming have a lot of corruption issues in their administration, so that outer provinces only brought back in tax a tiny fraction of what they were supposed to pay ? I have no source for that other than a discussion on the History forum here with a guy who documented that, but I can't remember what thread it was.

I read somewhere (forgot where; so not credible!), that a lot of people in china did shenanigans like 'donating' (of course they kept it de facto) their land to court-eunuchs or temples, which were tax-exempt.
An autonomy floor seems perfect as an abstraction to me.

 

[Denkt]

The difference between Ming and France is that France is not noticable strong compared to many other European majors while Ming is extremely powerful compared to the other countries in the region and thus needs to be keept in check somehow.

 

[tobias.mb]

The difference between Ming and France is that France is not noticable strong compared to many other European majors while Ming is extremely powerful compared to the other countries in the region and thus needs to be keept in check somehow.

Maybe the Chinese Tradenodes could be changes, so that Ming has no real reason to expand? (at least not for Trade) Currently you practically have to blob into SEA if you don't want them stealing south-chinese trade; and the manchu since they sit in your trade capital.
It's not like China did a lot of Trade with foreigners, until they were forced at gunpoint by the europeans.

 

[Denkt]

The thing is that Ming did try to expand but without success, in the game it is really hard to fail a war as Ming even with all penalties it starts with.

 

[tobias.mb]

The thing is that Ming did try to expand but without success, in the game it is really hard to fail a war as Ming even with all penalties it starts with.

I dare say, in single player you will win 99% of your wars, no matter which nation you play. It really should be measured by how effective the AI is. And currently Ming implodes 80% of the time. Let's wait and see. If a single bad war still leads to them imploding because of rebels then everything is fine imho.

 

[Grand Historian]

It isn't there for historical reasons at all. It is purely gameplay. Most historians agree that the Ming dynasty was one of the most centralized and efficient governments the world has ever seen. The fact that the dynasty collapsed is not a reflection of its entire rule. France doesn't start with horrible tax rates in 1444, even though this was the case until Louis XIV's reforms. Again, the game is inspired by history, not a representation of history.

The Ming also closed their borders, banned long range trade missions, suffered hyperinflation in the 1440's and beyond, levied oppressive taxes on the peasants that drove many of them to become Wokou, worsening the strain on their already selective trade and tribute, stagnated technologically and ideologically due to the reactionary and elitist Confucian bureaucracy and the emphasis on ancestor worship and traditional Chinese philosophy, failed to expand or make practical use of any of the technological innovations their predecessors had made, wasted massive amounts of money and lives on an impractical defense that in the end was overcome by bribery, and stifled social mobility at any chance they could. They were centralized, yes, but far from efficient (or competent, primarily in their latter days), and though the dynasty collapsing is not a reflection of their rule, it was a culmination of all their failings combined with a series of disastrous wars, and most historians will also be quick to point out those many failings in the midst of their triumphs as well.

 

[Kh3lben]

Wow ! What a nice and unexpected change. I am really eager to see how Ming AI performs now.

With strength to lift mountains and spirit to take on the world

 

[Vivi_]

Repeating a justified complain does not make it less so. Fix it and we'll stop complaining.

Well said!

I can't understand how dev's can spend their time improving a wide range aspects of the game while they could focus on hordes.

Who cares about religions mechanics, warfare and other stuff!

Plz stop these useless DLC and release the DLC we wait :

- 104 new graphic units for hordes.
- 532 new governements forms for hordes.
- 47 new cultures for hordes.
- 12 new game mechanics for hordes warfare.

Once you will do that, we will stop to QQ at hordes nerf and will start complaining about tuareg culture nerfed and removed from England.

Daoists aren't even in game

It's true that a Daoists sects wielded some influence and even some Ming emperors were actually Daoists, but neither had the kind of power the actual court factions had. And i don't think it was mentionned anywhere that they were persecuting buddhists or were interested in conquest.

Daoism is not a sect. It is a philosophy turned into a religion by people. Mostly like some philosophies one would said.

Actualy, they had a lot of power, not forgot to mention that powder was discovered by daoist alchemists, quite usefull to earn some influence.

But you are right on the fact that, they have nothing to do with buddhists. Actualy, daoism shares some points of view with zen buddhism so, I never understood that funny sentence about buddhists not being a renewable ressource (altought it's funny). At most, daoists kinda are confucianists heretics, even if it dosn't makes much sense since both are not two branchs of a same religion.

BTW, confucianism symbol is the daoist one. And the bonuses rather match daosim than confucianism. Kind of weird.

 

[ARC Starscream]

So many nations I can play through again, Buddhist nations, China, HRE, Italy, England. I actually managed to fend of Hungry Hungry Russia as Ming, but if the inward perfection is gone it seems China's mechanics might have been changed enough for me to go through it again

 

[joe9594]

I find it strange that everyone complains about ming collapsing all the time given I have mostly seen ming survive in my games. That being said this is probably the result of confirmation bias. I was wondering if Paradox actually has any hard data as to how often ming would survive in 1.11?
I would like to get a more definative answer than personal experiences.

 

[blackchoas]

I find it strange that everyone complains about ming collapsing all the time given I have mostly seen ming survive in my games. That being said this is probably the result of confirmation bias. I was wondering if Paradox actually has any hard data as to how often ming would survive in 1.11?
I would like to get a more definative answer than personal experiences.

It also depends on who you are starting as, if you start as a nation that is normally lucky, Ming is pretty high up the list of people who could get the lucky nation modifier instead

Daoists aren't even in game

It's true that a Daoists sects wielded some influence and even some Ming emperors were actually Daoists, but neither had the kind of power the actual court factions had. And i don't think it was mentionned anywhere that they were persecuting buddhists or were interested in conquest.

Lets be fair, Confucian uses a Daoist symbol for it rather, and to be perfectly honest, asking the average chinese person even today if they are Confucian or Daoist is a foolish question since they are kinda both while often being Buddhists as well

 

[Darkath]

Inward perfect!tion reflects how China largely abandoned exploration following Zheng He's epic journeys. Anything foreign was suspect, The Middle Kingdom was self sufficient and outsiders a dangerous threat to stability.

Ming china after Zheng he expeditions had more pressing problems. After the Tumu crisis, the Ming emperor realized they had to secure their border and the frontier from the hordes (especially the oirats). However the efforts spent on the great wall and the increasingly corrupt military turned out to be a very costly matter, even though it did help fend off the hordes. Still, the dynasty ran into more and more economic difficulties until the arrival of europeans which spurred growth and increased trade in the empire. But again the Ming empire crumbled on the verge of bankruptcy when the little ice age, the natural disasters, the poor tax efficiency, and the imjin war drained the last resources of the empire.

Ming was never much isolated from the europeans merchants, even though they regarded them with contempt and showed little interested in importing european goods.

 

[Zelius]

Lets be fair, Confucian uses a Daoist symbol for it rather, and to be perfectly honest, asking the average chinese person even today if they are Confucian or Daoist is a foolish question since they are kinda both while often being Buddhists as well

No, asking the average chinese person today whether they are Confucian or Daoist is foolish because they are neither.

You might get some interesting responses if you stray into the rural areas, but basically the average Chinese citizen is as Buddhist/Confucian as the average Japanese citizen is Shinto. There are religion-themed events, but you can't really infer anything by this in the same way you would not say anyone who celebrates Easter/Christmas (in their modern incarnations) is of any particular religion.

If I had to name the predominant religion, it is Tradition itself, celebrating the apparently glorious past, ancestors, and let's not forget traditional chinese medicine.

 

[Darkath]

Lets be fair, Confucian uses a Daoist symbol for it rather, and to be perfectly honest, asking the average chinese person even today if they are Confucian or Daoist is a foolish question since they are kinda both while often being Buddhists as well

They'll most likely tell you they have no religion, and in practice they mix everything in a big melting pot of beliefs. However the situation in today's china has nothing to do with 1444 china.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Wow. This is honestly a bigger deal than some of the features they advertised, and it didn't even make a dev diary! Well, I think I'd rather have ahistorically overpowered China than ahistorically underpowered China.

 

[winddy]

WE SHALL OVERCOME

oh my god




CHINESE DRAGON THANKS YOU PARADOX

Could you two tell me about picture sources please? :3

 

[ywxiao]

oh my god




CHINESE DRAGON THANKS YOU PARADOX

If you watched one of Jake's streams, you'd notice that Ming has a -33% MP penalty on top of the 50% minimum autonomy. Essentially means 17% base MP with ACCEPTED CULTURE, and 0% for everything else. The cultural union was absolutely necessary as otherwise Ming will have 2% manpower modifier for most provinces with the nerfs to Ming from this patch.

Combine that with the fact that cities like Beijing and Nanjing and dozens of other 1,000,000+ population cities have 1-3 manpower development, and you get a Ming with very low capability for war.

Unless you decide to throw out all your money on mercenaries, which granted Ming can do better than most nations at the beginning of the game.

They also killed going after Gold as a viable strat for Ming as the autonomy will chew up all the ducats.

 

[Osman Pasha]

Damn, then how am I going to conquer Ming as the Manchu or Tibet? Ming will just become OP and dominate Asia. This is horrible in my opinion.

 

[Osman Pasha]

*tears in my eyes* I supported long and hard removing Inward Perfection, and that CB, and cultural union...

Now Ming still won't be OP because of 50% autonomy, mandate instability and sheer risk of 20+ cultures going rampant (especially as separatists will be active for Ming even with accepted cultures) but it will be much more fair and interesting as an AI opponent as well as more enjoyable to play as.

And reunite China CB finally opens the doors for Chinese States.

50% autonomy means absolutely nothing they are still extremely powerful. How is the Manchu conquest even possible now? Do you seriously have to westernize as Manchu first in order to beat Ming???

 

[toroltao]

I'm pretty sure Ming still won't be a powerhouse. I think these were necessary changes to make Ming viable in the new version rather than an all around buff everybody thinks it is.