MING: INWARD PERFECTION IS GONE.
- Thread starter Krajzen
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Does remind me how much I'd like a system to encourage a new state to form as the old one collapses (especially one related to give internal factions a presence to these events, beyond simply just the revolter tags, or the stat bonuses from the Factions system.) The new CB is a start, but I feel it's only a slight nudge.
Any nerfs to Ming should really be built around its beauracratic system. I didn't much like Divine Wind's system (where the Factions system was demonstrated as essentially being a nerf,) but rather perhaps something more akin to the Jannisaries event tree for the Ottomans.
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What are you smoking? Violent crime has been going down for 20 years.
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Don't be too concerned about a Teahadist's lies. I think he's just upset even the slightest bit of gun licensing and background checks are actually reducing voilent crime, contrary to ammosexuals' claims that guns solve everything (which they could, if they'd actually go through with pointing it at their own heads and pulling the trigger, it would solve all their problems).
Now, about Ming being THAT overpowered... imagine being a BBB without coalitions forming against you. If you get Exploration and then Religious, you can westernize safely even before you get your third idea group, if you don't expand during it (Humanism's bonuses are great, but Deus Vult when you are one of four countries that are Confucian, and begin with the power of the France that gets BBB achievement?)
Because Ming being OP was so obvious that we all went completely off the rails in terms of the topic?
Does Ming conquer most of Asia in your games? Because until it does that regularly I can't seriously consider it overpowered. Sure player can do whatever they want since there is only one potential problem in the entire game and it is easily dealt with but that is independent of the country so using player as argument for pretty much anything is pointless.Because Ming being OP was so obvious that we all went completely off the rails in terms of the topic?
Well I'm playing a game and its 1620. Ming has taken what appears to be a thin line of the silk road all the way past Pakistan, and is one province away from meeting Persia. They've also dominated the chinese region, except for a korean blob and a unified Japan.
This is without Lucky Nations.
This is without Lucky Nations.
The moment they script the AI to conquer a beeline toward the nearest Western nation, or take Exploration first, it will be broken beyond measure. Right now however it's only mildly bad, particularly since they always ally Korea (which them blobs into Manchuria) instead of mass claim fab followed by conquering.
Hum I feel AI should play the game so if beelining Western nation and/or taking exploration is the thing to do then the AI should do so. If that is not wanted then change the mechanic not make the AI even weaker than it already is.
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The problem is that if the AI should play the game the way it would be played by actual players, then we'd see something very interesting indeed in south Asia as Vijayanagar cuts off Ming by colonizing the Maldives AND Diego Garcia early from going west to Africa, and a very early clash between those two as Ming, desperate to head west, either punches through Bengal and Orissa (at least for provinces that allow claim fabbing), assaults Vijanagar and then demands one of those two island provinces, depending on wehtehr they already took Pegu/Arakan (demand Maldives) or colonized Nias (demand Diego Garcia), and maybe even demand Mahe or Mauritius/Ile Bourbon if Vij has made it that far.
That would not be amusing for anyone playing either of those two powers.
From here that looks pretty awesome(AI actually seemingly reacting to what I do) if beyond what I think the AI could do if something like this was implemented. Also Ming can always go East too.
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West is simply faster and cheaper (less provinces to core/colonize). Trust me, I did the calculations (and tried it out, but that's not the point). Also far less risk of accidentally making Ming Alaska Chinese tech group...
Your example is of Indian countries blocking Ming and I mentioned East is also a possible direction avoiding all those countries. Whether it is faster and cheaper depends if the Indian(or other neighbours) countries are fighting each other or not.
And if you want fast and cheap then colonizing a path is perhaps the wrong way to go about it. Chinese tech group doesn't have as good vision as Indian(which in turn has greater worries to rush westernization) so relies on alliances and wars but depending how things go it is possible to get a western neighbour early enough that you haven't even fallen behind 7 techs yet especially since you will want to focus mil for easier wars.
Current Ming game I went the slow ride colonizing to get an idea of things but next I intend to do either the above or a safer but still faster/cheaper way to explore to Brazil as fast as possible then declare war and snipe colony, potentially by using exploration finisher on natives then fabricating claim to avoid non cb if I get enough dip.
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Interesting.
I went admin focus, +3 Admin and +3 Dip advisors with a Grand Captain whenever one was available (don't care what level) and beyond tunneling through to the Pegu coast and giving all of Chagatai to Sarig Yogir to stop Oirat from doing anything but fighting Uzbek, I didn't do anything really, and I met Portugal at Gold Coast when I was 6 techs behind (closed to 5 moments later on researching a MIL level as I was almsot capping). Due to excess MIL points I ended up reaching Panama before I could Westernize (mostly as I went exploration/expansion/humanist instead of what my mental math now tells me, i.e. exploration/religious-->westernization would let me burn admin on coring earlier so that I could stay behind). I used overrun whenever I needed to fight wars and didn't really care about MIL tech (though by 50 years post-westernization I regularly ended up at >+100% MIL cost due to inability to burn it off fast enough... I think my record was +190%?)
Admittedly if India was actively blocking I'd just have bludgeoned my way through, probably, because I. AM. MING. FEAR ME!
The design question is how much effort and modification should be directed to
(1) a never-ending battle to squash exploits vs.
(2) creating a game that if played by the AI or role-played within historically plausible lines by a player gives a good game of living history.
As the center of the world, China's diplomacy with its axiomatically inferior neighbors was naturally that of an empire to its tributary vassals, including allowing occasional tributary diplomatic missions during which the Celestial Empire would condescend to trade.
As you may imagine, my Ming Empire (this was some time ago) was focused on maintaining order and its prestige and authority. This included helping, disciplining, and expanding its vassal sphere and chastening interlopers. Since Westernization occurred only after the time-frame of the game, maintaining China's policies posed some challenges. However, being in character was more fun for me than WC attempts would ever be.
(1) a never-ending battle to squash exploits vs.
(2) creating a game that if played by the AI or role-played within historically plausible lines by a player gives a good game of living history.
As the center of the world, China's diplomacy with its axiomatically inferior neighbors was naturally that of an empire to its tributary vassals, including allowing occasional tributary diplomatic missions during which the Celestial Empire would condescend to trade.
As you may imagine, my Ming Empire (this was some time ago) was focused on maintaining order and its prestige and authority. This included helping, disciplining, and expanding its vassal sphere and chastening interlopers. Since Westernization occurred only after the time-frame of the game, maintaining China's policies posed some challenges. However, being in character was more fun for me than WC attempts would ever be.
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