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Osman Pasha

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Nobody fields a historically sized army, AFAIK.

Mehmed the Conqueror pitched up outside Constantinople with over fifty thousand men. Try to do the same in the game, owning only the territory he did, and you'll go broke.

But Ming should have at least 200k force limit considering the fact that it had a million troops. The Ottomans CAN field 50,000 men in 1453 while unlikely. In my Mamluks campaign they got over their force limit by 20k. And China is obviously underpopulated in the game, just take a look at the manpower of the provinces vs Europe's.
 

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You seem under-informed. Remember, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Corruption, crony "capitalism", and a shrinking middle class while the top guys pay less in income tax rates due to all the tax dodging... sound familiar yet? Guess not, you have your fingers rammed up your ears after all.
Your original assertion was that taxes are levied on those least able to afford them, i.e. low income households. That claim is false and easily proven so, now you move the goal posts and proclaim victory. However, your new cliam is equally absurd. Tax rates are lower on income from investment than income earned from work, true. This is to encourage investment. But even at a lower rate, higher tax brackets pay more in absolute terms. Think on it, 10% of 100,000,000 is more than 20% of 40,000. It's quite simple math.

You blame my nation's decline on religion, family values and xenophobia, whereas the true problem is radical progressives who despise America and the traditions that made it great. The assault on American prosperity is lead by these wealthy progressives. Importing millions of illegal aliens to compete with native born workers when the labor participation rate hovers between 50 and 60% is insane to anyone who understands that the laws of supply and demand apply to labor markets. This is xenophilia harming American families, not xenophobia.

Family values are in decline as more and more children are raised by single mothers. In some communities, the majority of children do not know their fathers. Not surprisingly, the communities that reject traditional family values are more troubled than communities that embrace traditional family values. These fatherless boys seek out male role models in gangs and murder each other at record pace. The crime sparks calls for an increased police presence, yet the inevitable conficts between criminals and police are cast as systemic bias in order to further the progressive agenda. Our cities burn when progressive politicians order police to stand down and allow rioters to loot and destroy. The chaos and destruction drives investment away. With fewer legitimate oppurtunities, more turn to crime. Already high murder rates explode, the crime drives away the few remaining productive citizens worsening the situation even further. Only an incredibly ignorant and biased observer could attempt to blame this death spiral on family values. If religion, family values and conservative policies are to blame, Salt Lake City would be more affected than progressive bastions like Detroit and Baltimore.

When every mainstream media outlet hails Jenner as a hero and lambasts police as villains, we are hardly seeing an excess of traditional values. To state the contrary is almost as risible as your claims to be a superior defense contractor.
 
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Guardian54

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Because the Duggars (TV show "19 kids and counting", I think) are totally perfect "family values". They let their son molest their daughters and other children and never reported it because they knew they wouldn't be allowed to homeschool anymore.

Those people don't belong anywhere near children. Ever. They belong at the end of a chainsaw, and I would love to be the executioner behind that chainsaw.

American values were founded when guns were 30 second reload, 25-ish if you were well trained, so shooting sprees when 2nd amendment was passed? Basically impossible. 1800s was when revolvers became common, the 2nd was in 1791. Therefore a major American value is long outdated and needs to be revised to match reality, unless you think that life now works 300 times faster than it used to (assuming 600 RPM cyclic for assault rifles i.e. 10 shots a second, which is pretty typical). Then how about e-mails crossing the Atlantic in under a second instead of several weeks? That's more than a hundred thousand times if my mental quick math is correct. How bout you try making your heart beat, or reflexes, that many times faster than your ancestors? Is the pace of life really that much faster? NO.

Single mothers... perhaps that's because you're removing abortion clinics that would have headed off the problem the same way getting a DTP (Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis) shot every 10 years heads off those illnesses. As a side note, since often race is dragged into this, have you seen the statistics that show black men to be, by a small margin, more involved with children's lives than white men, particularly if the parents are not married?

Hmm, so 10% of 1 million is more tax paid than 20% of 40K, but the guy with the 900K left over to stash in an offshore bank and trade in goods that do not create material value like speculation markets versus the 32K hand-to-mouth consumer are completely different. If you need more than 100 million a year to live, then you deserve to be dead from "lack of money", because you are too impaired at that basic life function--it's like saying someone's a genius at math... who can't even breathe on their own.

As for riots, the last time we had major riots were cross-burning white-hood-wearing thugs who really should have made said cloaks and hoods their body bags. Modern Americans see the cops attacking people for nothing and shooting to kill every damned time (even when the suspect is running, there's something called shooting the leg) and we conclude they act like an occupying army. You ever get "Cruelty of Mercenaries" firing in your games? The US fails to spend on police training the way a respectable nation would (the first option which gives higher merc costs and fewer mercs for a while), is it any surprise that it's bleeding Prestige and getting unrest from "Terrorized by merc--ahem, cops"?

Every empire falls the same way, to a cancer within. Ming did, Qing did, Tsarist Russia did, the USSR did, and so America will fall inevitably. Anything with a beginning has an end.
 
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Guardian54

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What happened to this thread...

Some guy decided to overreact for no reason after flaming Ming (appropriately) than the parallel to a brief summary of another superpower's reasons for decline pissed him and his worldview off.

Sorry for derailing it but he insisted on pressing the issue, and turning the other cheek has always been a matter of asking to get punched again.

Back on topic... Ming needs nerfing again, for gameplay purposes, because it's nuts now that Inward Perfection is gone.
 
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Will Steel

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In this game, you don't have to worry about your supply line when sending troops to battle which in reality is of utmost importance where ensuring a supply line that is well protected and wouldn't be easily cut off by the enemy is vital. But this aspect of a battle is totally ignored by the game. Ultimately this is one of the reasons why countries like China historically never quite expand outside of their territory. They rarely had any interest in expanding south. To the east is a vast ocean. Horde territory to the north are not fertile enough for farming and expanding west into central asia is a logistic nightmare at that time.

Yep. And this is exactly the reason Mughals lost their lands in the southern part of India after 1730s. The hilly, plateau-like geography combined with multiple narrow valleys which were all fortified, their supply lines in south basically depended on luck. While their armies were unmatched and reigned supreme in the north, the Marathas basically cut their huge, heavy cavalry armies with simple raids that had large effect.

Worse, for all their large navy the Mughals were unable to supply their southern armies and garrisons by sea. The geography was such that the logistical routes through sea either got raided as soon as they landed, or had to go through arduous routes which were fortified.
 

Osman Pasha

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Some guy decided to overreact for no reason after flaming Ming (appropriately) than the parallel to a brief summary of another superpower's reasons for decline pissed him and his worldview off.

Sorry for derailing it but he insisted on pressing the issue, and turning the other cheek has always been a matter of asking to get punched again.

Back on topic... Ming needs nerfing again, for gameplay purposes, because it's nuts now that Inward Perfection is gone.

Strongly agree, the inward perfection modifier was historical.
 
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Osman Pasha

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It wasn't historical, it was a gameplay nerf.
It was historical, Ming turned inward by the early 1400s, you should have learned this in history class. The isolationist faction gained influence over the country. They even destroyed the records of Zheng He's expedition. That is why they rarely go to war and trade with other countries. The idea of having the inward perfection modifier makes sense, however it could be reworked so that Ming doesn't get a force limit penalty.

Please read about 海禁 (sea ban). Does this not suggest that Ming was inward?
 
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Will Steel

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It was historical, Ming turned inward by the early 1400s, you should have learned this in history class. The isolationist faction gained influence over the country. They even destroyed the records of Zheng He's expedition. That is why they rarely go to war and trade with other countries. The idea of having the inward perfection modifier makes sense, however it could be reworked so that Ming doesn't get a force limit penalty.

Please read about 海禁 (sea ban). Does this not suggest that Ming was inward?

Nope, it was never this radical as you are trying to suggest. The level of real isolation came only during Qing era, where they fortified the entire coast and abandoned everything within around 10 km of the coastlines (except major cities). The Ming still traded along the sea with Vietnam and Korea (facing heavy raids from Wako/Wokou pirates). What they did was to stop all the exploration voyages, stopped adapting innovations from other countries and areas, restricted their naval trade to East Asia, stopped all military expansion they had done till yet under Emperor Yongle, heavily restricted travel between borders and so on. They focused on the stability of the existing empire and the defense of the borders. And that is where they started to lag behind. But until the Qing, the restrictions were never that heavy.

The inward perfection only makes sense if the player chooses it through event (as it already exists), and it should not affect anything other than trade, navy and technology.

Also, about 'history class', I doubt I got more knowledge from them than extensive research and reading I have done on the subject.
 
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Osman Pasha

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Nope, it was never this radical as you are trying to suggest. The level of real isolation came only during Qing era, where they fortified the entire coast and abandoned everything within around 10 km of the coastlines (except major cities). The Ming still traded along the sea with Vietnam and Korea (facing heavy raids from Wako/Wokou pirates). What they did was to stop all the exploration voyages, stopped adapting innovations from other countries and areas, restricted their naval trade to East Asia, stopped all military expansion they had done till yet under Emperor Yongle, heavily restricted travel between borders and so on. They focused on the stability of the existing empire and the defense of the borders. And that is where they started to lag behind. But until the Qing, the restrictions were never that heavy.

The inward perfection only makes sense if the player chooses it through event (as it already exists), and it should not affect anything other than trade, navy and technology.

Also, about 'history class', I doubt I got more knowledge from them than extensive research and reading I have done on the subject.

What does your extensive research mean? Ming traded along with Vietnam and Korea because they were tributary states that border them. And like you said they "restricted their naval trade to East Asia, stopped all military expansion", how does this not suggest that they were inward?!!

This is the timeline I found.


1402年 海禁令
1404年 海禁令
1405年

1431年 鄭和下西洋
1431年 海禁令
1433年 海禁令
1449年 海禁令
土木堡之變
1452年 海禁令
1459年 海禁令
1509年 廣州開港
1522年 葡萄牙艦船砲撃被驅逐
廣州封港
1523年 寧波之亂
海禁令
1524年 海禁令
1526年 日本石見銀山正式開礦
1529年 海禁令
廣東重開貿易
1533年 海禁令
日本引入「灰吹法」鑄銀

How many 海禁令 were there during this period of time? You see the pattern? They empire was a hermit. They focused on stability, yet there were constant rebellions (土木堡之變 (Tumu rebellion in Chinese)). The dynasty was known for its cruelty. The Ming dynasty was overall unstable. The Qing Dynasty actually interacted more with its neighbors, they fought wars with most of its neighbors (Nepal, Russia, Vietnam). The Qing Dynasty was not as isolated as the Ming.
 
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Will Steel

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The dynasty was known for its cruelty.

I'd like to know the source of this, mate. The general impression is that they weren't as open-minded and lenient as the Tang Dynasty had been, but much better than Qing, Han and Song in terms of leniency.

As for the rest of your post, I'll reply once I get to my PC.
 
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Osman Pasha

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Um, they were a hell of a lot better than Qing, at least they didn't have the 文字狱 program going, ensoring all things that could refer to the last dynasty... didn't force styles (braid) on the people, etc.

They weren't in fact. Although both dynasties were cruel, the Ming Dynasty was notorious for having cruel emperors and eunuchs. The most prominent eunuch being Wei Zhongxian. If you read history textbooks written in Chinese you will see that the Ming Dynasty was not as glorious and prosperous as it seems.
 

Osman Pasha

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I'd like to know the source of this, mate. The general impression is that they weren't as open-minded and lenient as the Tang Dynasty had been, but much better than Qing, Han and Song in terms of leniency.

As for the rest of your post, I'll reply once I get to my PC.

And where did you get that from? The Ming Dynasty WAS notoriously cruel. http://www.sunypress.edu/p-2229-the-eunuchs-in-the-ming-dynasty.aspx I suggest you read this book you can find a PDF of the book online.
 

Robert de Bruce

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Well, to return to the initial question: I just finished an Ayutthaya game with the White Elephant Achievement in early 17th century. I had to fight Ming just one time, when they were allied to Hsenwi and Hsenwi considered it to be a good idea to backstab me while dealing with Malacca. I just bought Ming off the war and forced Hsenwi to cancel the alliance. I never had to deal with Ming anymore, around the 1580 they started to implode, too. It was not a single collapse, but more and more rebels enforcing their independence. Also, Ming did not really expand all over the game.
 

Will Steel

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This thread is gone, everyone abandon ship!

Thou shalt not return to an abandoned, sunken ship 3 days later. Which thou hast just done.