MING: INWARD PERFECTION IS GONE.

[Guardian54]

What is honestly the point of insulting america?
I mean I am not american and not really insulted by it but so many people do it and they all kind of just start to sound like a broken record.
Also it starts flame wars that no one wants to be in and destroys interesting threads.

I just thought his post sounded like an amalgamation of the most common accusations levied at the US of A, and noted it because of the amusement at the realization that it sounded similar.

 

[grommile]

I think the Golden Horde used to eat Bohemia by 1480.

Only with a player at the wheel (and in that case it would be much sooner, more like 1430). AI Golden Horde under DW 5.1 mechanics would stop... round about the time it achieved a border with Austria and Bohemia, which would tend to coincide with the first TSC trashing their armies, whereupon Bohemia would become Snakehemia.

 

[thecryptile]

I just thought his post sounded like an amalgamation of the most common accusations levied at the US of A, and noted it because of the amusement at the realization that it sounded similar.

Most of your post regarding America is wildly off the mark, as well as off topic. Just one easily proven example of your ignorance: you claim that taxes are disproportionally levied on the poor, when low income households actually receive money from the government in the form of subsidies like SNAP and the EIC and do not pay income taxes.

Please save the modern politics for other forums, let's concentrate on 1444-1821 in the EUIV forum.

 

[Dampfbert]

Can someone remind me what exactly the Inward Perfection modifier did? I can't find the numbers anywhere.

 

[NGAC]

Glad to hear that Ming's less of a crippled beast now, as for the autonomy penalty, it makes historical sense.

Wide-ranging censuses of the entire empire were conducted decennially, but the desire to avoid labor and taxes and the difficulty of storing and reviewing the enormous archives at Nanjing hampered accurate figures.[6] Estimates for the late-Ming population vary from 160 to 200 million,[9] but necessary revenues were squeezed out of smaller and smaller numbers of farmers as more disappeared from the official records or "donated" their lands to tax-exempt eunuchs or temples.[6]

 

[grommile]

Can someone remind me what exactly the Inward Perfection modifier did? I can't find the numbers anywhere.

-10% Discipline, -25% Land Force Limit, -25% Manpower Recovery Speed, +25% Unjustified Demands, -25% trade power, -2 diplomatic relations, -25% trade income, +50% advisor cost, +50% build cost (ducats), -25% tax income, -1 advisor pool size, -25% heir chance.

 

[Dampfbert]

Thanks, grommile. Yea, that modifier is truly scary. I remember it being quite fun playing Ming, but I guess the new version is more interesting overall for the region. I'm looking forward to an expansion focusing on the area, hopefully bringing some richer mechanics to China.

 

[ywxiao]

it was qing i think, ming was eradicated by manchu tribes

Manchu tribes were invited by WuSangui to become the Emperor. The only major battle they really contributed to was against Li Zicheng, and that was after he foolishly alienated the people and many of his closest supporters.

If WuSangui decided to hold Shanhai, Manchus can send a few more Nurhaci to be cannon fodder.

So it makes sense that Ming can only fall due to internal problems.

 

[Mister X]

i fear this is going to break the game in east asia... and we may have china eat up a lot of neighbours... authonomy is not enough to keep them in check... we'll need something to nerf them as soon as possible.

i hope i'm wrong and china will still not be able to wreck everything it surrounds, but that's unlikely...

Eh in IRL the leverage to this behavior was everyone and their dog that are technologically superior beating them up bad

 

[Will Steel]

it was qing i think, ming was eradicated by manchu tribes

Until 1580s they were still a huge (but weakening) superpower. Right from 1386 onwards they had been a powerful force and the hegemon of all East Asia.

 

[Will Steel]

As a Indian, you have a good Chinese history background

Some reson that China can became unified dynasty a long time (Europe can unified by follow these policy)

1. Watch this video time at: 32:36 As a history teacher, he just get one point : Assimilation
(European National different concept is too strong, why they don't use culture unified concept....)
(If Chinese find America, indians will become Chinese, let them study confucianism, and choose indians peole to control America )

2. Feudal system died before Qin dynasty (221 BC). Feudal system change to lineal primogeniture system-trueborn Eldest Son.

3. Imperial Examination system....If you read confucianism books, poor people also can become officer . Breake the nobleman control.

4. unified everthing, language, ideology....................

5. Absolute monarchy.................................

6. Don’ give military commanders/generals military power start at Song dynasty (Ming and Qing follow this policy).
..............................................
..............................................

I alraly bought the ROTK 30th Anniversary edition game which include ROTK 1 - 12 (support for win7, win8, win8.1) , and I try to play ROTK 1. When I palyed ROTK 1, I even did't know that you just can use keyboard. I'm curious whether all the games can not use the mouse in 1985.

Thanks. Well, I have studied in detail about every dynasty from Xia to Qing. The only historical era about which I don't know much about China is 1912-today.

1. But how? India had their own empires (Mughals, Vijayanagara etc.) in this time that were equally powerful and actually richer, how would they turn Chinese if Ming discoverd Americas?

2. Exactly. Eastern Zhou Dynasty was the period when even feudalism degenerated to the point where King just existed in name only. From 771 BC onwards Chinese kings had no real authority.

3. Yes, I read in detail about the Imperial Examination. But as far as I know, it was only Tang Dynasty where this system came into full, formal effect. Until Sui Dynasty, the Examinations were there but the top posts and real bureaucratic power was always monopolized by noble families with high influence or relations to the Emperor. Commoners couldn't break this unofficial 'wall' unless the emperor was good enough, for example Emperor Wu of Han, until Emperor Gaozong's era.

4. And that is the only thing different between India and China. India had a fully-fledged bureaucracy and other things, but multitudes of cultures and states. Many empires managed to unite almost all of them, but only the Mauryan Empire managed to unite all of India into a single state (Mughals almost did it in late 17th-early 18th century).

5. Yep, this was a basic feature of all of China until 1908.

6. And yes, this was an important move. By this Song Dynasty prevented outright military civil wars that plagued Qin, Han and Tang. But it also made the Imperial Army weaker and defense-focused.

Ming was centralised, but it wasn't strong (after Zheng He's expedition). The Dynasty was known for being corrupted and cruel (read about Wei Zhongxian). The military of the Ming Dynasty was pretty weak to be honest. Although they had the numbers they lacked qualities such as discipline and morale. The Mongols actually abducted one of the emperors.

For the Ming military, I think Paradox should remove the 50% autonomy modifier and the current -33% modifier as a celestial empire, but give Ming a -10% discipline and -20% morale. This should balance the game and make the game more historical.

But, how does one man's voyage change the politics of an entire empire?

That becomes the case only after Hongxi Emperor, and early reign of his successor. Until the end of their reign Ming had a really great army, not only in numbers but in terms of training, equipment and especially technology. That is how they managed to keep steppes as tributary vassals, rebellious Vietnamese at bay, and also expanded outright into Manchuria.

It is only after that when ineffective emperors begin to come up, military is neglected, corruption rises and their army starts to become static and unable to defend the borders. After the eunuchs took power, no emperor no matter how good or bad, was able to break their power and conduct some reforms.

And a fixed penalty would be bad. This game shouldn't be railroaded to follow certain things. Ming could've remained powerful if they didn't succumb to bad emperors and corrupt, murderous eunuchs. This game lets the players write an alternate history.

 

[ARASHI]

Thanks. Well, I have studied in detail about every dynasty from Xia to Qing. The only historical era about which I don't know much about China is 1912-today.

6. And yes, this was an important move. By this Song Dynasty prevented outright military civil wars that plagued Qin, Han and Tang. But it also made the Imperial Army weaker and defense-focused.

This is a major factor that contributed to the ultimate downfall of the Song Dynasty. By neglecting military and focusing on economic, technological and cultural development Song managed to avoid civil wars and created one of the most glorious empires in the world. But at what cost? The weak army couldn't withstand the northern hordes and the Han culture spent a large portion of the next 800 years devastated by foreign rule in the hands of the Mongols and Manchus. Both the Mongols and Manchus committed horrible acts to the Han culture to tighten their grip on the country and the Han culture never truly recovered from that.

Some say that the real China doesn't exist anymore after the Song dynasty. And that is largely due to the neglect of military development by Song.

 

[joe9594]

It is only after that when ineffective emperors begin to come up, military is neglected, corruption rises and their army starts to become static and unable to defend the borders.

This is interesting to consider and from what I have read it was an important element of china's history. Bad emperors were really capable enough to keep the structure together. Maybe ming could have penalties introduced based on monarch stats much like tribal governments.

 

[Will Steel]

This is a major factor that contributed to the ultimate downfall of the Song Dynasty. By neglecting military and focusing on economic, technological and cultural development Song managed to avoid civil wars and created one of the most glorious empires in the world. But at what cost? The weak army couldn't withstand the northern hordes and the Han culture spent a large portion of the next 800 years devastated by foreign rule in the hands of the Mongols and Manchus. Both the Mongols and Manchus committed horrible acts to the Han culture to tighten their grip on the country and the Han culture never truly recovered from that.

Some say that the real China doesn't exist anymore after the Song dynasty. And that is largely due to the neglect of military development by Song.

Indeed, it was the biggest factor in Song Dynasty's collapse. They had the second largest economy of the whole world with rich coffers, they had complete stability and peace in the interior of their empire, and their army was huge. But due to their paranoia and drive to prevent a repetition of what happened to Han and Tang, made them look at military as a threat instead of a useful tool. There was strict military and civil separation (similar to Roman Empire after Diocletian).

The generals were rotated, the troops were rotated. Any general who showed even a slight hint of becoming famous or gaining influence was sent away. Some critical generals who helped prevent the Song Dynasty from total catastrophe like Yue Fei (an excellent commander), were outright executed by the court. This crippled their leadership and cost them a lot.

Secondly, unlike the Tang Dynasty army which was focused on attack and had lots of cavalry (inheriting the entire system from Sui Dynasty), the Song Dynasty army was organized in a completely different way. Their armies were mostly infantry, which made them unable to counter cavalry powers like Jin, Xi Xia and later the Mongols. As much as I have read. their armies weren't usual field armies like those of Tang, but separated into locally recruited 'border garrisons' and 'interior armies'. When someone attacked, all the pressure was felt by those border garrisons while interior armies were mobilized. The entire army was centrally controlled and had no independence of command.

The tactics were not good enough on the grand strategy sense. Tang armies marched in enemy lands and annihilated them before they actually became a threat. When a threat arrived, they'd try to meet it before it reaches the borders of the empire (just like Rome in the 1st-2nd century). Song, instead, occupied borders and rarely attacked outside of it. The enemies were already within their borders before they dealt with them. This was good for some time until this strategy failed and they lost the core Chinese lands to the Jin.

In the end, Song Dynasty managed to fully prevent and avoid any civil wars and internal rebellions. But at the cost of fielding a military that was incapable of attacking and bad at defending, without being led by able commanders.

And also as you say, it was the first time China was wholly conquered by foreigners, so it might be right to say that classical, unbroken chain of 'Han' rulers came to an end with the Song.

This is interesting to consider and from what I have read it was an important element of china's history. Bad emperors were really capable enough to keep the structure together. Maybe ming could have penalties introduced based on monarch stats much like tribal governments.

For the Ming, most of the time in case of a bad/ineffective emperors, the court eunuchs were actually in power. They ruled for almost century and a half and are rumoured to have even assassinated emperors they couldn't control as a puppet.

 

[Osman Pasha]

[\QUOTE] But, how does one man's voyage change the politics of an entire empire?

That becomes the case only after Hongxi Emperor, and early reign of his successor. Until the end of their reign Ming had a really great army, not only in numbers but in terms of training, equipment and especially technology. That is how they managed to keep steppes as tributary vassals, rebellious Vietnamese at bay, and also expanded outright into Manchuria.

It is only after that when ineffective emperors begin to come up, military is neglected, corruption rises and their army starts to become static and unable to defend the borders. After the eunuchs took power, no emperor no matter how good or bad, was able to break their power and conduct some reforms.

And a fixed penalty would be bad. This game shouldn't be railroaded to follow certain things. Ming could've remained powerful if they didn't succumb to bad emperors and corrupt, murderous eunuchs. This game lets the players write an alternate history. [/QUOTE]

I am not talking about how Zheng He changed the politics of the empire, I am simply saying that Ming became inward and detached from the rest of the world. The inward perfection modifier was historical. However, I do think that it is a joke how Ming has a force limit of 60k in the game. Historically they had well over a million troops.

 

[ywxiao]

While politics is one side of the Ming prpblem, the bigger side was economics.

Why do you think there was hyperinflation and a shortage of silver? Money wasn't really leaving the country, massive amounts were entering.

It was because of corruption and crony capitalism. The rich and powerful kept proffitting at the expense of the people.

Why did the people evade tax registry and later revolt? It's not because the imperial tax was too high, it's the corrupt local officials collecting far more for themselves.

How do you prevent the decline of Ming? Honestly I don't think anyone knows, even today we haven't figured it out, we merely know how to slow the progress better.

 

[grommile]

I am not talking about how Zheng He changed the politics of the empire, I am simply saying that Ming became inward and detached from the rest of the world. The inward perfection modifier was historical. However, I do think that it is a joke how Ming has a force limit of 60k in the game. Historically they had well over a million troops.

Nobody fields a historically sized army, AFAIK.

Mehmed the Conqueror pitched up outside Constantinople with over fifty thousand men. Try to do the same in the game, owning only the territory he did, and you'll go broke.

 

[Will Steel]

True. Mughal Empire had over a million troops in the late 17th and early 18th century, deployed in almost every corner of India. Some battles they fought in that era alone had over had 100,000 troops. Yet it isn't possible for them to have that many men in the game even in their economic and military peak.

Their old adversary, the small kingdom of Mewar alone could field 70-80,000 fully armed men including many elephant units. In the game they basically cannot field more than 15,000, and that is after lot of trading and developing.

 

[ARASHI]

True. Mughal Empire had over a million troops in the late 17th and early 18th century, deployed in almost every corner of India. Some battles they fought in that era alone had over had 100,000 troops. Yet it isn't possible for them to have that many men in the game even in their economic and military peak.

Their old adversary, the small kingdom of Mewar alone could field 70-80,000 fully armed men including many elephant units. In the game they basically cannot field more than 15,000, and that is after lot of trading and developing.

The problem here is that game developers cannot or does not know how to model the logistic nightmare of fielding a large number of troops and sending them to faraway lands to do battle during the EU4 timeframe. That's why they come up with solutions in the form of nerfing manpower/forcelimit in countries like Ming/India to prevent them from being overpowered under the model they constructed but totally unrealistic if you look at it from a historical viewpoint.

In this game, you don't have to worry about your supply line when sending troops to battle which in reality is of utmost importance where ensuring a supply line that is well protected and wouldn't be easily cut off by the enemy is vital. But this aspect of a battle is totally ignored by the game. Ultimately this is one of the reasons why countries like China historically never quite expand outside of their territory. They rarely had any interest in expanding south. To the east is a vast ocean. Horde territory to the north are not fertile enough for farming and expanding west into central asia is a logistic nightmare at that time.

You would think DLC titled "Art of War" "Common Sense" etc would be the perfect chance to introduce a supply line mechanic. But no nobody cares about why countries are able to send 100k+ troops halfway across the planet to do battle without major penalties.

 

[Guardian54]

Most of your post regarding America is wildly off the mark, as well as off topic. Just one easily proven example of your ignorance: you claim that taxes are disproportionally levied on the poor, when low income households actually receive money from the government in the form of subsidies like SNAP and the EIC and do not pay income taxes.

Please save the modern politics for other forums, let's concentrate on 1444-1821 in the EUIV forum.

You seem under-informed. Remember, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Corruption, crony "capitalism", and a shrinking middle class while the top guys pay less in income tax rates due to all the tax dodging... sound familiar yet? Guess not, you have your fingers rammed up your ears after all.

While politics is one side of the Ming prpblem, the bigger side was economics.

Why do you think there was hyperinflation and a shortage of silver? Money wasn't really leaving the country, massive amounts were entering.

It was because of corruption and crony capitalism. The rich and powerful kept proffitting at the expense of the people.

Why did the people evade tax registry and later revolt? It's not because the imperial tax was too high, it's the corrupt local officials collecting far more for themselves.

How do you prevent the decline of Ming? Honestly I don't think anyone knows, even today we haven't figured it out, we merely know how to slow the progress better.

Not sure they're slowing the progress, because coming off of the 1950s when top level marginal tax rates were 90% to now where the super-rich don't pay taxes due to all their tax breaks sure went FASTER THAN MING... Maybe it's because they both begin with M in their common labels, and were superpowers.

Erosion of a "middle class" i.e. poor but adequate living conditions always leads to trouble (cough Bastille cough). The ruling class doesn't seem to have learned it yet...

The problem here is that game developers cannot or does not know how to model the logistic nightmare of fielding a large number of troops and sending them to faraway lands to do battle during the EU4 timeframe. That's why they come up with solutions in the form of nerfing manpower/forcelimit in countries like Ming/India to prevent them from being overpowered under the model they constructed but totally unrealistic if you look at it from a historical viewpoint.

In this game, you don't have to worry about your supply line when sending troops to battle which in reality is of utmost importance where ensuring a supply line that is well protected and wouldn't be easily cut off by the enemy is vital. But this aspect of a battle is totally ignored by the game. Ultimately this is one of the reasons why countries like China historically never quite expand outside of their territory. They rarely had any interest in expanding south. To the east is a vast ocean. Horde territory to the north are not fertile enough for farming and expanding west into central asia is a logistic nightmare at that time.

Well HOI does supply alright, so why can't they do something similar for EU4?