Ming and "Gain Innovation" Suggestion

[bly08]

Then you are not aware of the circumstance forcing me to abandon my purse of the achievement. I already have the Qing one I still need the golden khan.

There is currently a game-breaking bug where if you declare independence on a tributaries (Mongolia vs Oirat as a tributaries under Ming) which will also bring both Oirat and Ming against YOU. So you have to keep restarting until you get a start where Ming support YOUR independence and not immediate declare "force tributaries on Oirat" while the super-general of Oirat is still alive.

It is basically a random number generator crap shoot. How long is that super general of Oirat going to live? How long can Oirat "hold off" accept the tributaries?

Not only I have to deal with my liege I also have to destabilize Ming. THAT is a pretty tall order.

In fact I will document this problem for ya. First off Ming has "555" reasons to accept Oirat's tributaries via diplomacy action nevermind the declare "force tributaries" CB itself.

Declaring war on Oirat bring in Ming no matter what you do once Oirat goes tributaries regardless of if Ming actually support your independence or not.

Even the great DDRJake would have serious trouble with golden khan as Mongolia against odds like that. God help you if you get to 1600 still stuck as Oirat's vassal pet.

What does this have to do with Ming's stability? You keep changing the subject. Oirat doesn't start as Ming's tributary, win the Independence war before then. A decent horde player would never be in this situation in the first place.

 

[Tavior]

What does this have to do with Ming's stability? You keep changing the subject. Oirat doesn't start as Ming's tributary, win the Independence war before then. A decent horde player would never be in this situation in the first place.

Now you are getting off the subject...

As a Mongolia you are a horde you can trigger the northern horde on border disaster for Ming if you want to plan long-term invasion of Ming. However like I said you can't straight away declare war because Oirat has this super general 3/4/3/0 something at Nov 11, 1444. Unless you manage to time it perfectly so that their general dies and you still have a 4 shock general somewhere and somehow. You can try to declare war and break off before Ming has a chance. Like I said random number generator crap shoot since each month there is a tick to when that general dies.

However if Ming manage to become stable and gain Oirat as a tributaries you are screwed long-term.

It has NOTHING to do with how stable Ming is at that point, at least regarding golden khan achievement. It has to do with a declaring independence war ON a freaking tributaries which is clearly not intended to be used in this way.


End-game Ming is a different subject. You are conflating the two different subjects. Not me.

 

[bly08]

Now you are getting off the subject...

As a Mongolia you are a horde you can trigger the northern horde on border disaster for Ming if you want to plan long-term invasion of Ming. However like I said you can't straight away declare war because Oirat has this super general 3/4/3/0 something at Nov 11, 1444. Unless you manage to time it perfectly so that their general dies and you still have a 4 shock general somewhere and somehow. You can try to declare war and break off before Ming has a chance. Like I said random number generator crap shoot since each month there is a tick to when that general dies.

However if Ming manage to become stable and gain Oirat as a tributaries you are screwed long-term.

It has NOTHING to do with how stable Ming is at that point, at least regarding golden khan achievement. It has to do with a declaring independence war ON a freaking tributaries which is clearly not intended to be used in this way.


End-game Ming is a different subject. You are conflating the two different subjects. Not me.

This was posted on the last page:

OK two patch. However I already tried to seriously destabilized Ming in a few games on 1.24 I just gave up on that. Mostly because I am about feed up with trying to deal with Ming.

You went from complaining about Ming's stability to posting about how hard it is to gain independence as Mongolia, which means you haven't even started destabilizing Ming yet. You admit that neither has anything to do with the other. So why did you bring it up? Who is conflating two different subjects here?

The independence war can be won if you play it right, which requires getting better at the game. This might seem preposterous but it's the way to solve most challenges in the game, you know, to get better at it.

 

[bly08]

I understand you disagree with my posts, don't have to actually downvote every one before replying. The downvote is a bit redundant here.

 

[Tavior]

This was posted on the last page:



You went from complaining about Ming's stability to posting about how hard it is to gain independence as Mongolia, which means you haven't even started destabilizing Ming yet. You admit that neither has anything to do with the other. So why did you bring it up? Who is conflating two different subjects here?

The independence war can be won if you play it right, which requires getting better at the game. This might seem preposterous but it's the way to solve most challenges in the game, you know, to get better at it.

I never said that those 1.24 games were late-game. Just that in generalized I am TIRED of trying to destabilize either indirectly or directly.

For example, as that Dith Germany OPM into great power game I tried to help out Russia by funnel financial aid and what not. It wasn't enough despite Russia having a bigger army. For some reason Russia didn't call me in those wars.

Few game as Mongolia -> independence war against Oirat AND Ming both at the same time suck. It has nothing to do with how skill I play.

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

So no screen shot of Ming two techs ahead?

 

[gasior]

If ur mongolia u can flip ur syncretic religion to confucian to get insta support of independence(unless they changed something this patch - i didnt play that region this patch). Also i dont usually see oirat going into the tribute volountarily.
Destabilising ming as a human player is quite easy if u understand mandate mechanic properly. Although i agree that ming in an observed(ai vs ai) game is a monster... players shouldnt have any problems with them whatsoever. I really think that to nerf ai ming(against other ai's) is to do some flavour to the ai hordes possibly or smth(horde in a player hands is one of the best things in this game tbh, in ai hands its lackluster).
Cheers

 

[bly08]

I never said that those 1.24 games were late-game. Just that in generalized I am TIRED of trying to destabilize either indirectly or directly.

For example, as that Dith Germany OPM into great power game I tried to help out Russia by funnel financial aid and what not. It wasn't enough despite Russia having a bigger army. For some reason Russia didn't call me in those wars.

Few game as Mongolia -> independence war against Oirat AND Ming both at the same time suck. It has nothing to do with how skill I play.

The fact that you can't think of another way to win the independence war has to do with skill:

 

[Tavior]

So no screen shot of Ming two techs ahead?

They can get two tech ahead because they usually end up with +3 adviser all game. While most nominally Europe great power usually can't even wing that.

The fact that you can't think of another way to win the independence war has to do with skill:

View attachment 333389

I already told you and I will said it again. Oirat has a super-general even if you do win the independence war even with Ming on your side. It can be a losing proposition because Oirat is bigger and can absorb more manpower loss than you do. If Ming lose half of their manpower they might just bow out of the war before you can get the warscore necessarily to gain independence.

If you pull it off with zero loan and full manpower. I would love to see you do that. Go ahead and try it.

They will just grow west or something and come back to eat you before you can gain superiority in the east.

Furthermore I already mention that Ming can and will support your independence if you change your syndicate faith. There is a small not-trivial penalty that comes with doing that which means not going 100% cavalry. It is NOT something I didn't know about. Even with that in place other hordes will likely eat you alive if you are low on money/manpower afterward.

Then you are not aware of the circumstance forcing me to abandon my purse of the achievement. I already have the Qing one I still need the golden khan.

There is currently a game-breaking bug where if you declare independence on a tributaries (Mongolia vs Oirat as a tributaries under Ming) which will also bring both Oirat and Ming against YOU. So you have to keep restarting until you get a start where Ming support YOUR independence and not immediate declare "force tributaries on Oirat" while the super-general of Oirat is still alive.

It is basically a random number generator crap shoot. How long is that super general of Oirat going to live? How long can Oirat "hold off" accept the tributaries?

Just quit already with the "whole you have no skill" attitude.

 

[bly08]

They can get two tech ahead because they usually end up with +3 adviser all game. While most nominally Europe great power usually can't even wing that.



I already told you and I will said it again. Oirat has a super-general even if you do win the independence war even with Ming on your side. It can be a losing proposition because Oirat is bigger and can absorb more manpower loss than you do. If Ming lose half of their manpower they might just bow out of the war before you can get the warscore necessarily to gain independence.

If you pull it off with zero loan and full manpower. I would love to see you do that. Go ahead and try it.

They will just grow west or something and come back to eat you before you can gain superiority in the east.

Furthermore I already mention that Ming can and will support your independence if you change your syndicate faith. There is a small not-trivial penalty that comes with doing that which means not going 100% cavalry. It is NOT something I didn't know about. Even with that in place other hordes will likely eat you alive if you are low on money/manpower afterward.

You are delusional if you think the 10 year CD for switching syncretic faith isn't worth winning the independence war, or that winning the war with Ming can still be a "losing proposition," or that there's a chance to lose vs. Oirat + Sarig Yogir with Ming on your side (if you have 3k hours played). Why are you imposing arbitrary restrictions like having full manpower and no loans? Maybe it's time to step back and evaluate where the 3k hours went.

 

[gasior]

If you pull it off with zero loan and full manpower. I would love to see you do that. Go ahead and try it.

Some wise man said that if u dont have loans ur not even trying... but if u have max manpower early game then something is totally wrong with you(or afk).

 

[Reaper_Zwei]

Just quit already with the "whole you have no skill" attitude.

Well you know if the shoe fits.....

 

[bly08]

and btw, I don't even have 3k, hours played isn't everything.

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

They can get two tech ahead because they usually end up with +3 adviser all game. While most nominally Europe great power usually can't even wing that.

Maybe you can't. I'm still waiting for you to show Ming being two techs ahead of Europe.

 

[Casko]

Ignoring the drama on this thread, I must concur that this might be something the Devs should put extra look into, as it can be quite damaging for the rest of Asia as Ming tend to be far ahead of their neighbors, even ignoring the extreme stability of the Ming and the weakness of the AI Manchu and the broken tributary system. if its not taken good care of, it'll can cause countries like Korea and Japan to suffer way more than they have any need to do as unless they are in a player hands they'll suffer and leave Ming just growing even stronger as they get things cheaper and cheaper.

 

[Tavior]

You ar delusional if you think the 10 year CD for switching syncretic faith isn't worth winning the independence war, or that winning the war with Ming can still be a "losing proposition," or that there's a chance to lose vs. Oirat + Sarig Yogir with Ming on your side (if you have 3k hours played). Why are you imposing arbitrary restrictions like having full manpower and no loans? Maybe it's time to step back and evaluate where the 3k hours went.

Some wise man said that if u dont have loans ur not even trying... but if u have max manpower early game then something is totally wrong with you(or afk).

You failed to mention two problems.

Since Ming set EVERYTHING to province of interest so if they siege it. They WILL NOT revert control over to you for any reasons whatsoever. So if you want land access to other hordes such as uzbek/changtai. You have to race to siege it down first before Ming does.

Otherwise you are stuck with land that are closest to you and Oirat still block your western expansion route at least until truce expires at any rate.

If random number generator gods hate you enough to spawn a rebel in oirat province you took. They fight with full power in the mountain provinces you have as Mongolia while you have to overwhelm them while fighting 50% less effective. Even if you don't take land and only ducat. Ming get more of it because they did everything and you would be lucky to pay off your loan if you tried to fight.

It will slow your progress to be sure. However if RNG hate you enough. It will not matter if you play well or not. Because the other non-truce horde will dogpile you at some point.

 

[Reaper_Zwei]

Perhaps you should mention where this has to do with Ming staying two techs ahead of Europe.

 

[gasior]

at least we can agree that u can get ming help... after u got ming on ur side everything should be easy enough to manage for somewhat decent player(or evem weak one i guess)... The things u listed are not hard to accomplish and are rather slight problems for ur nation that you can surpass not a very hard way. Unless u think that getting indepdence from relatively strong oirat(in a region at least) should not be at least a little bit problematic we should end this discussion.

about the topic.. i do belive that ming might be stronger this patch, not enough to be ridiculously op or unkillable but to ai's around it might be a slight problem.

 

[Dominion]

Ignoring the drama on this thread, I must concur that this might be something the Devs should put extra look into, as it can be quite damaging for the rest of Asia as Ming tend to be far ahead of their neighbors, even ignoring the extreme stability of the Ming and the weakness of the AI Manchu and the broken tributary system. if its not taken good care of, it'll can cause countries like Korea and Japan to suffer way more than they have any need to do as unless they are in a player hands they'll suffer and leave Ming just growing even stronger as they get things cheaper and cheaper.

I mean, technically they did fix Ming with recent patches.

It barely expands.
It is stable, but the chance of a Mingsplosion got reintroduced.
You can safely expand around them while being tributary.
Korea and Japan do form and expand more often than not.
Russia does reach Ming and starts clashing with them as soon as they share a border, introducing the first actual war between two equal powers (Ottos vs Russia doesn't count for obvious reasons).

And many more things.
As I said, the region itself is technically healthy. If you just look at a timelapse or something.

Tributary system itself is still crap.

 

[caedussl]

Ming doesn't get two techs ahead of Europe, but a stable Ming once they've caught up on institutions (usually sometime in the 17th century, before Manufactories if they're doing well) absolutely does keep up with European GPs on tech...I'm really not sure why that's in dispute. The only thing keeping them behind is institutions and once they have those, they do better than most due to getting monarch points from tributaries.