Ming and "Gain Innovation" Suggestion

[Tavior]

Right now Ming is nearly always "one of the first" to keep up with Europe tech even with 100% tech malus going into 17th century that is if they hadn't implode already.

At least that is my common experience.

Now that we know bit about innovation. I am actually worried because by the time a powerful neighbor can drag Ming's innovation down (-.1 per neighbor who are ahead in tech). It will be too late. Nobody at 1444 can keep up with Ming long-term.

Nobody else in the area, assuming all AI, can keep up with Ming except for a very few tag who has strong bonus if play by AI right. But they usually flop long before they can realize any ambitions. Manchu tribes and any other hordes and Ming's horde on northern disaster that is.

To further add "salt" to a wound. Ming has very high discount on idea group and guess what? You get +2 from being first in an idea group. They are usually unlock idea groups so fast that they will just add a feedback loop since higher innovation = cheaper tech.

Nevermind the monthly bonus for being ahead in tech.

So... I am wondering is there anything being planned to slow down Ming absurd ahistorical tech progress?

 

[bly08]

I will say again that I've never seen a Ming with even tech compared to European GPs going into the 1600s. If you have any plans of fighting Ming then mil tech is the only one that matters. I've never seen European GPs out-teched militarily by Ming.

 

[Dominion]

They should just kill the tributary system. It was a fun idea, it doesn't work.

 

[Tavior]

I will say again that I've never seen a Ming with even tech compared to European GPs going into the 1600s. If you have any plans of fighting Ming then mil tech is the only one that matters. I've never seen European GPs out-teched militarily by Ming.

You must have missed the entire patch cycle where Ming was AHEAD of European by two tech AND unlock all idea group with each idea group costing only 200 MP.

 

[bly08]

You must have missed the entire patch cycle where Ming was AHEAD of European by two tech AND unlock all idea group with each idea group costing only 200 MP.

Upload some screenshots

 

[SaucyBaron]

They should just kill the tributary system. It was a fun idea, it doesn't work.

I really like the idea of the tributary system, it just has so many wonky little things wrong about it.

My Ideas to fix the tributary system:

1. You can only request a certain percentage of your tributaries (by development) to give monarch power, numbers are up in the air but this should stop Ming always being ahead in tech of euros by so much (easy +3 advisors is another matter)

2. Fix all the special cases with tributaries that have their own subjects, Ming shouldn't be defending it's tributaries from independence wars (but perhaps give Ming a modifier to make them more willing to lend very cheap condaterarii to it's tributaries), perhaps also make them less likely to defend tributaries as they get further away but still give condaterarii, right now it's silly that Ming sends 300k troops to defend a 10 development tributary in India, sending 30-60k troops would feel less ridiculous. AI would still need to take Ming's condaterarii into account when declaring on a tributary.

 

[Tavior]

Upload some screenshots

There are plenty of screenshot in "strange screenshot thread". I shouldn't have to do it myself but sure OK I will humor you.

I was playing as the germany minor OPM in Europe and growing etc... So I have ZERO involvement in asia theater. I was showing the Ming "personality" however more importantly you can see Ming has 49 idea unlocked and is all 28 tech across the board which means they have "decent" income.

Furthermore they are STABLE despite being at 25 mandate of heaven and getting wardeclared BY a blobbing Russia. Sadly Russia can't even manage a decent war of attrition against Ming in the same game. Edit: Forget to mention, It even hit zero Mandate later after this screenshot.

Keep in mind this was on an older patch. Ming was like this for a WHOLE year before they finally made Ming mandate fall below 50 when you enact reforms.

 

[bly08]

What does that screenshot show when it's 1. 1766 which means every GP should be maxed out or nearly maxed out on tech, 2. you don't state the patch, 3. you bring up the issue of mandate which has nothing to do with tech.

If you're a European OPM why does it matter how stable Ming is?

 

[Tavior]

What does that screenshot show when it's 1. 1766 which means every GP should be maxed out or nearly maxed out on tech, 2. you don't state the patch, 3. you bring up the issue of mandate which has nothing to do with tech.

If you're a European OPM why does it matter how stable Ming is?

Erm...

You asked for a screenshot where the tag Ming is up to tech with European and didn't even ask for a specific patch version. Heck the balance adjustment to mandate didn't really fix the snowball monster that is Ming.

I understand that there is a remote chance that it can still happens in the current version and I have not really felt like playing much lately with EU 4 because I can't wait for the mission feature that is coming.

I don't recall which patch it was on as it was a long time ago, Sept 24, 2017 to be exact to when it was posted to steam's screenshot, and I don't feel like running an observation game to post a screenshot.

Look for yourself. I usually upload the screenshot a few day after the game.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1145412060

Issue of mandate is that even being at low mandate which cause you to have up to 50% fire/shock received in combat. Numerous-wise Ming SHOULD have lost every single battle/war but NOPE. What happened is that Ming would just spam merc and burn Russia's manpower first despite the 50% extra damage received during battles for economical reasons alone!

Edit: It mattered to me because Russia is allied to me. You can see how big I am roughly by manpower pool and my fleet/army on the right side.

If Russia was losing a war I would not try to start a war where I need Russia help which is why it mattered to me. I wasn't even an OPM at this point.

Also you can see that I have "intervene" possible war on the top. Which meant I was a great power myself.

 

[bly08]

I asked for a screenshot based on your claim that

Right now Ming is nearly always "one of the first" to keep up with Europe tech even with 100% tech malus going into 17th century that is if they hadn't implode already.

But instead you show a screenshot from 1.22 with Ming on 28/28/28 tech in 1766. So how am I supposed to interpret "right now" and "17th century"?

Judging by your own admission that you haven't played much of this game recently maybe it's better to play it first, experience the changes then think about making another Ming is too OP post?

 

[Tavior]

I asked for a screenshot based on your claim that



But instead you show a screenshot from 1.22 with Ming on 28/28/28 tech in 1766. So how am I supposed to interpret "right now" and "17th century"?

Judging by your own admission that you haven't played much of this game recently maybe it's better to play it first, experience the changes then think about making another Ming is too OP post?

I have not play much because I don't want to play with the old mission system. Not that I completely stop playing for a year or something other such.

In fact the last serious game was at least 5 months ago. Right between Russia 1.22 patch and Persia 1.23 patch version which is ONE single patch out of date.

The only changes that I saw in Persia 1.23 was following.

• Fixed on_annexed having the same tag as FROM and THIS, leading e.g. to "The End of the Ming Empire" event saying Ming "destroyed the Emperor".

• Increased Mandate cost for reforms from 50 to 70

• Low Mandate events will now be considerably more likely to happen.

You can see that Ming being at low mandate would only experience a more chance to have bad event and that was the only difference between 1.22 and 1.23 Ming.

That wasn't enough to get me to want play in the Asia theater anytime soon. Nevermind having to deal with end-game boss/monster that is Ming.

After the Rule Britannia Island I might actually come back and start having fun again.

 

[Atlantians]

I want to see the first nation to create an Anglican Ming. Minglicanism!

 

[bly08]

I have not play much because I don't want to play with the old mission system not that I completely stop playing for a year or something other such.

In fact the last serious game was at least 5 months ago. Right between Russia 1.22 patch and Persia 1.23 patch version which is ONE single patch out of date.

The only changes that I saw in Persia 1.23 was following.



You can see that Ming being at low mandate would only experience a more chance to have bad event and that was the only difference between 1.22 and 1.23 Ming.

That wasn't enough to get me to want play in the Asia theater anytime soon. Nevermind having to deal with end-game boss/monster that is Ming.

After the Rule Britannia Island I might actually come back and start having fun again.

Have you checked the patch notes for 1.24? That's the latest patch. Still doesn't change your point about tech but mandate gets another nerf. It's probably best to familiarize yourself with the lastest patch notes before complaining about the current state of the game.

 

[Tavior]

Have you checked the patch notes for 1.24? That's the latest patch. Still doesn't change your point about tech but mandate gets another nerf. It's probably best to familiarize yourself with the lastest patch notes before complaining about the current state of the game.

OK two patch. However I already tried to seriously destabilized Ming in a few games on 1.24 I just gave up on that. Mostly because I am about feed up with trying to deal with Ming.

 

[bly08]

OK two patch. However I already tried to seriously destabilized Ming in a few games on 1.24 I just gave up on that. Mostly because I am about feed up with trying to deal with Ming.

I think that might be a skill problem rather than problem with game design.

 

[Dominion]

I really like the idea of the tributary system, it just has so many wonky little things wrong about it.

My Ideas to fix the tributary system:

1. You can only request a certain percentage of your tributaries (by development) to give monarch power, numbers are up in the air but this should stop Ming always being ahead in tech of euros by so much (easy +3 advisors is another matter)

2. Fix all the special cases with tributaries that have their own subjects, Ming shouldn't be defending it's tributaries from independence wars (but perhaps give Ming a modifier to make them more willing to lend very cheap condaterarii to it's tributaries), perhaps also make them less likely to defend tributaries as they get further away but still give condaterarii, right now it's silly that Ming sends 300k troops to defend a 10 development tributary in India, sending 30-60k troops would feel less ridiculous. AI would still need to take Ming's condaterarii into account when declaring on a tributary.

Can't fix a system that's broken beyond hope.

Even worse: They nerfed Ming recently.
Because tributaries are too strong.

Because that's the only logical step. If a mechanic is too strong, nerf its biggest benefitor while ignoring the mechanic itself. Genius.

One day they wake up, nerf the mechanic and overnerf the former biggest benefitor in the process, followed by completely ignoring what they did earlier because "we recently had an Asia rework", leaving the region unbalanced and iffy.

After reading patchnotes for a while you get the feeling there's someone who's scared of losing his job and doing the best he can to make sure he'll always have something to do.

At least Cradle of Civilization didn't get to feel his magic touch. That one was solid.

 

[Tavior]

I think that might be a skill problem rather than problem with game design.

I have done some very hard achievements such as "Dracula's Revenge" and it was already super hard before they introduced vassal liberty.

Having to depend on vassal stupid AI to realize the best way to win is to merge before there was stance for vassal armies.

It was the only time I actually came super close to bankrupt once for a real achievement ironman run.

My skill isn't at the question here.

I have 3404 hours into EU 4 and the last time I ran EU 4 was Janury 17th, 2018. Don't make yourself look even more foolish please.

 

[bly08]

I have done some very hard achievements such as "Dracula's Revenge" and it was already super hard before they introduced vassal liberty.

Having to depend on vassal stupid AI to realize the best way to win is to merge before there was stance for vassal armies.

It was the only time I actually came super close to bankrupt once for a real achievement ironman run.

My skill isn't at the question here.

I have 3404 hours into EU 4 and the last time I ran EU 4 was Janury 17th, 2018. Don't make yourself look even more foolish please.

You have trouble destabilizing Ming on 1.24 when mandate has been nerfed to the ground. It doesn't matter what achievements you have or how many hours you've put in, you weren't doing it right. It's not a problem with the game it's a problem with your gameplay. Most of these threads are made by players who refuse to look at their own deficiencies and would rather blame the game. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.

 

[J.Deng]

The whole institution thing introduced in RoM royally messed up with tech balance.
Establishing overseas enclaves became a really bad idea, and powers that relied on superior tech (e.g. UK v. Mughal, Safavid v. Mughal, Japan v. Ming) just don't get represented well.

 

[Tavior]

You have trouble destabilizing Ming on 1.24 when mandate has been nerfed to the ground. It doesn't matter what achievements you have or how many hours you've put in, you weren't doing it right. It's not a problem with the game it's a problem with your gameplay. Most of these threads are made by players who refuse to look at their own deficiencies and would rather blame the game. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.

Then you are not aware of the circumstance forcing me to abandon my purse of the achievement. I already have the Qing one I still need the golden khan.

There is currently a game-breaking bug where if you declare independence on a tributaries (Mongolia vs Oirat as a tributaries under Ming) which will also bring both Oirat and Ming against YOU. So you have to keep restarting until you get a start where Ming support YOUR independence and not immediate declare "force tributaries on Oirat" while the super-general of Oirat is still alive.

It is basically a random number generator crap shoot. How long is that super general of Oirat going to live? How long can Oirat "hold off" accept the tributaries?

Not only I have to deal with my liege I also have to destabilize Ming. THAT is a pretty tall order.

In fact I will document this problem for ya. First off Ming has "555" reasons to accept Oirat's tributaries via diplomacy action nevermind the declare "force tributaries" CB itself.

Declaring war on Oirat bring in Ming no matter what you do once Oirat goes tributaries regardless of if Ming actually support your independence or not.

Even the great DDRJake would have serious trouble with golden khan as Mongolia against odds like that. God help you if you get to 1600 still stuck as Oirat's vassal pet.