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Examining the base units, where the designers placed quite a lot of the unit types distinctiveness, I find that a militia division is not much less effective than a regular infantry unit. It is certainly worth what you pay, relatively speaking. However, as countries inevitably climb the tech tree, militia divisions don't keep pace. In fact, for Poland or Russia for example, they are a disastrous misuse of scarce resources. Rather than being a viable last ditch effort, they almost guarantee that the country which is making them is doomed. They use as much supply as an infantry division, use up half the manpower, about 28% as much IC to build, but they contribute next to nothing to defence because their combat values don't keep pace proportionately. They are in fact worse than useless, because they take appalling casualties, which the poor bloody AI replaces from its precious MP pool, to the detrement of tactically useful units (like anything else at all).

There are several things wrong with this.

1- A unit that is supposed to give AI extra units to deal with a panic situation actually brings about the demise of the country. I feel quite certain that the AI for any country would be better served if the panic build was strictly infantry instead of Militia.

2- It has no connection with historical reality. Mithel tells us that German end of War militia were actually more effective than American Regulars. This certainly isn't remotely the case. In fact, German end of war Militia are about as effective as the infantry Ethiopia loses to Italy with in '36.

3- It doesn't really reflect how militia is raised and equipped. In my experience, Militia units tend to have similar equipment to regulars, for small arms; and artillery, armour etc is whatever the regulars handed them down when the regular forces got a new issue of equipment. So if the regular artillery moves to 105 guns, the militia would get the 76 guns. If the regulars moves to Centurians, the militia gets Shermans. There is also the issue of leadership. While the privates and junior ranks only receive a few weeks training, many of the NCO's and officers would be retired or invalided regulars. They might well be lead by a small cadre of regular men. And they would also benefit from better doctrine, though not to the same extent as the regulars. They would certainly know about and understand better techniques, even if they weren't as practiced in their implementation.

So, I propose that the techs and doctrines that benefit infantry divisions also benefit Militia divisions, though to a lesser degree. Particularly with artillery. They should benefit only from the smaller and more easily used equipment, and only when the regulars go one to something better. Except perhaps in the case of rocket artillery. That stuff was relatively cheap and easy to use. Well, not so much easy, as it didn’t really reward expertise.
 
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Are you saying that the proposal of modifying the techs and doctrines in that way will make the AI produce less militia units?

I get the impression that the main issue in your post is the AI 'effectiveness and result', but to be honest I am not sure. I guess the proposal would have an obvious effect on the human player using militia units, but again, it believe you are targeting the 'performance' of the AI, right?

This is interesting and I know you have made deep thinking earlier, so could you explain further please?
 

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Oops.

Sorry, what I mean to do is keep militia in the game, filling their historical role of second line troops, or hastily raised units, but ensure that they have the strength to actually accomplish something. Or anything.

By the time they are actually used in the game, the countries using them would have been better off leaving the MP's in the pool for reinforcing actual units. And that is because infantry has grown much, much stronger, but militia hasn't.

So, we should either take them out of the Panic AI for most countries, or else fix them so they remain about as relatively strong compared to infantry as they should be.

What we tell the AI to do should make as much sense as possible, and I wouldn't dream of building Militia units under any conditions. They simply can't contribute enough strength to justify the expense in manpower and supply.
 

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I agree. Since you can't make the AI stop building militia, the only solution is to make them stronger, or at least a better investment.

In HSP I was planning to cut their supply consumption by at least half, as it's silly to have a unit half the size, with less equipment, consume the same amount of supply.

I was also planning to nudge their org values and give them the benefit of some suitable techs, e.g. not 120mm howitzers, but land mines, 70mm infantry gun, improved SMG.
 

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I would assume that to model the 'hand me down effect' that the next infantry tech would give militia the bonuses of the previous one. Thus if our infantry goes to 100mm infantry guns that the militia gets the bonuses from 70mm guns?

What should be the 'top' militia equipment?
small arms: improved SMG, maybe basic assault rifle? the tube lauched rockets, and maybe the Recoiless rifle.
Artillery 75 or 100mm artillery?
Infantry and AT guns: around 40 - 70 mm?
AA 20-30 mm?

This might give militia enough bite to make them worthwhile...
 

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Math Guy said:
I was also planning to nudge their org values and give them the benefit of some suitable techs, e.g. not 120mm howitzers, but land mines, 70mm infantry gun, improved SMG.
This is a very good idea. I give militia slightly less than half the combat factor boost from tech that infantry gets. Since I employ fractional values, a tech that gives 0.5 SA to INF will give 0.25 SA to MIL, although the more advanced items militia simply wont benefit at all... nevertheless the result is a unit that is fairly efficient to built but that suffers form lack of density, somewhat less staying power (lower ORG), and mobility problems, which I think is a good description of MIL in a HoI setting.
 

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I also made the militia more effective in Terrain-movements
like mountain_move, forrest_move, jungle_move and bad weather move because of the lighter weapons and smaller groups; and also better in mountain_defense and so on

So they would move faster in bad terrains, bad weathers and got less defense penalty in bad terrains and weathers.
This could also simulate a little bit guerrillias and partisans

Additionally, I made them a little bit cheaper, shorter buildtime, but also a little bit less effective, so they represent at least Regiments. :)
 

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I don't remember who but someone suggested that we raise the cost of militia above infantry so that the AI will build infantry when it goes in a panic rather than militia. I don't know if that actually works or not.

My approach has been to model militia as a reasonable value but with their own unique stats. Militia should be horrible for offensives and break easily and quickly when faced with a serious attack, thus they get lower org values. I do have the techs benefit militia too so they "keep pace" with other troops. And I'm also tweaking the terrain effects to represent the fact that militia are likely familiar with their local terrain and thus benefit more from defending in rough terrain.

I hope I didn't actually state that German militia at the end of the war were as good as American regulars. I've read several accounts where the German militia (old men and boys) simply broke and ran when faced with enemy fire. I think what I was trying to say was that many American soldiers were "green" and when faced by opposition broke very easily (much like militia). Also I was trying to say that the Germans threw a lot of "militia" against the Americans and all in all the American's didn't just roll over them.

Unfortunately in HoI "militia" can mean several things:
1) Reserve divisions not equipped or trained as well as regulars.
2) Garrison troops
3) Old men and boys (and women?) hastily handed a rifle and told to fight.
4) Partisans

Thus how we model them depends on which of the definitions we lean toward the most.

- Mithel
 

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Vive la Resistance

Exactly. Which brings me back to something I said a few days ago, about having some "resistance doctrines".

Choosing the resistance or partisan side of the tech tree should make militia into much tougher defensive units (all the things cpack mentioned, plus higher org and enough GD to absorb the firepower of a full INF division without the dogpile effect) but hold SA down, reduce supply and build cost and deprive them of any gains in HA, speed, and air attack.

Choosing the garrison or reserve option should make them into a mini-division with some reasonable fraction of the INF division values in all aspects, but should also ratchet up their build cost along the way, and shut down the resistance techs.

Choosing nothing should leave you with the classic 1 SA, 3 GD "old men and boys with rifles" unit. This ought to capture the performance of, say, Ethiopian tribal levies with spears, the early artillery-less "divisions" raised by both sides in the Spanish Civil War, or maybe Nationalist Chinese provincial warlord troops in 1936 (as opposed to the German-trained divisions controlled by Chiang Kai Shek directly).

I don't see any way to simulate the mixture of solid reserve formations AND old men and boys in the same army, unless you introduce at least two models of militia. So some of the unevenness of Germany's 1945 emergency army that Mithel is talking about (and it was the same for the Soviets in 1941, really) wouldn't get modeled without more work, or maybe can't be done at all given that the AI always builds the highest model. But I'd be pretty happy just to be able to choose a "resistance" strategy and build hordes of little feeble-but-hard-to-kill units. It would make some countries, like Communist China, a lot more interesting technologically.
 

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Mithel said:
I don't remember who but someone suggested that we raise the cost of militia above infantry so that the AI will build infantry when it goes in a panic rather than militia. I don't know if that actually works or not.
I think it would be better to increase the cost efficiency of building militia, so that you are getting your moneys worth no matter what the tech level.
Math guy said:
and deprive them of any gains in HA, speed, and air attack.
This cannot be done unfortunately... tech gains are applied to all models of a given unit type.

You could start them off with a lower base value, or apply penalties in the "Partisan Doctrine" techs that would counteract any tech gain, perhaps...
 

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Oh, I think I know what you mean, but I was looking at something much simpler. No additional unit models -- I haven't been able to make that work properly anyway.

If you choose the resistance doctrines, then some techs get deactivated, and you don't get them even for your other units, e.g. no 120mm howitzer for anyone, not for militia and not for infantry or motorized either.

You can do this in reverse order:

Resistance Level 1 deactivates some really, really advanced techs like APCs or Helicopter HQ in exchange for some fairly simple unconventional warfare techs like Decentralized Command and Night Operations.

Resistance Level 2 deactivates more mid-range techs like Air-Ground Cooperation, 120mm Howitzer, Motorized HQ or 200mm Rocket, in exchange for more classic guerrilla doctrines like Political Officers (more org), or Camoflauged Supply Routes (more air defense, more GD). At this point you're dealing with something like the North Vietnamese Army -- still recognizable as regulars, but faced with an overwhelmingly superior enemy.

Resistance Level 3 deactivates some shorter-term techs like 80mm AA and 70mm AT, for hardcore guerrilla doctrines like Village Self-Defense Corps, or Porter Columns. If you go all the way to Level 3, you're basically giving up on any kind of mech or motor or armor, and your infantry is going to look a lot like your militia.
 

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Math Guy said:
Oh, I think I know what you mean, but I was looking at something much simpler. No additional unit models -- I haven't been able to make that work properly anyway.
Extra models have worked pretty well for me...

The resistance techs idea is pretty interesting. However you SHOULD be able to return to a more conventional doctrine at some point, and resume research on the tech tree. The NVA in 1975 was a pretty-fully equipped conventional army compared to the infiltration units of 1969.

However problem #1: now matter how high you boost org to, in the face of enemy air superiority it'll always get reduced to 10. Boosting AD does not really help this much either. You COULD boost AA to make tactical bombing operations against guerilla/resistance forces more costly, however this is not a very realistic development.

If there were some way of reducing enemy tacticalattack efficiency, that would be ideal, but I do not think there is a variable that controls that...
 

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I haven't worked on AD values so I don't know how much use it would be to increase them. My premise is that guerrilla forces that have org values similar to infantry divisions are already a lot tougher than infantry in resisting air attack, because three 5,000-man MIL divisions will generate 3x the daily org recovery that one 15,000-man INF will. Add some benefit from the higher AD, and some terrain benefit (reduces TAC strength), and I think guerrilla forces in their usual mountain/swamp/jungle habitat will hold up much better under air attack than equivalent INF manpower on flat ground.

I already have problems rooting out Chinese MIL in the mountains using air power, so I think it should work out OK. It's a starting point, anyway.
 

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I love the notion of parallel research paths in the tech trees, and a doctrinal decision at level one determines with path you follow during all subsequent research. In fact it is exactly what I have been advocating in the Set Brigade Time to 0 thread, which has become a discussion of the place and value of artillery thread. My proposal there was to simulate the level of artillery support Math Guy related to us earlier. The disparity between casualties inflicted by artillery on the western front, vs. artillery casualties on the eastern front, and reasons therein. On the western front, artillery was used liberally to save lives, on the eastern front, lives were spent to save artillery shells.
My proposal was to insert a free doctrine decision at level one Land Doctrine were the AI or player could choose which approach to take. If lavish artillery use is chosen (exemplified by American divisions) then each gain in Artillery tech would contribute a fair amount of attack, some GD, and a significant increase in Supply requirement. If limited artillery support is chosen, as exemplified by both sides in the east, then the same new artillery piece (though a different tech of course) will contribute almost as much attack, little or no GD, and a very small increase in supply requirements. Which path to choose can easily be determined by giving countries a tech that is the prerequisite for the appropriate path. Whether it would be worthwhile to allow decisions at higher levels is, as all things are, open to debate.
 

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just wanted to add my own 2 bits to the discussion...

at least from what i have read and can remember off hand, most volksturm (militia) had somewhat comparable equipment to regular german infantry units.
so i would just suggest that more tech advances that affect regular inf also become applicable to the militia units.

and also make militia units start with 1 hard attack to signify the molotov's and other 'improviced' anti tank weapons that could easily be made or used...

i guess you could say that militia units should stay one or two steps behind regular units stats wise (to represent that militia unit would get the surplus and old equipment of the regular's)
 

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Yeap, would be nice they benefit more from tech or start at least with 1 HA (or got 1 earlier at least). I wondered in they should get some benefit in rought terrains... I am more thinking of asian militia than european one but still...
 

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Whatever is done ought to reflect the true militia nature of the soviet rifle division orginastions from late 41 to mid 42. This were unquestionably militia divisions consisting of very briefly trained troops with infantry weapons only. They illustrate the real use and weakness of militia much better than the volksturm because they worked. They consumed time and effort to kill whilst allowing the 'real' russian units to survive and fight on.
 

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Interesting.

I hadn't noticed that. As useless as Militia has been, that is a very good idea. However, if the AI is going to disband it anyway, better that it not build it at all.

BTW, I read some comments about AI panic-building whatever is cheapest. I understood that the Panic AI had defined percentages of what to build, and Militia is high priority. It certainly seems in the save game that percentages of units to build are defined. I'd be very surprised if no one knows this for sure. If not though, the testing would be pretty easy. (And soon posted in the Wacky House.)