Military Staff bonuses don't work they way you think they do.

[Emnel]

I kinda assume that special bonuses such as +15% Special Forces Attack/Defense or +15% Artillery Attack, +10% Artillery Defense or +10% Infantry Attack, +15% Infantry Defense simply modify those stats for all such companies in your divisions.

Turns out that's not the case. Those bonuses are applied to whole divisions based on what the game considers them to be. If the game sees the divisions as an artillery division it will, as a whole, receive the +15%/+10% bonus in combat, even if there are 10 infantry companies in it.

Let me give you a few examples:

7 Mountaineers, 3 Artillery --> Special Forces Division

7 Mountaineers, 7 Infantry, 3 Artillery --> Special Forces Division (special forces take precedence over infantry when equal)

7 Mountaineers, 4 Artillery --> Artillery Division (since artillery companies count as 2 for that purpose)

6 Mountaineers, 6 Infantry, 3 Artillery --> Artillery division (since artillery apparently both takes precedence when numbers are equal and counts as 2 companies)

6 Mountaineers, 6 Marines, 6 Infantry, 6 Cavalry, 6 Motorized, 3 Artillery --> Artillery Division since only the highest number matters.

Game will show you what your division is by assigning it a basic template symbol, but only once you saved your changes in division designer.




Here is what various Military Staff bonuses actually affect: (replaced with the post by @Zwireq from below):


Artillery Divisions count as both Infantry and Artillery divisions. They get bonus from Artillery (Specialist/Expert/Genius), and Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius). Bonus stack.

Infantry divisions counts as Infantry divisions. They get bonus from Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius).

Special Forces divisions (Paratroopers/Marines/Mountaineers) count as Special Forces and Infantry Divisions. They get bonus from Commando (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius). Bonus stack.

Cavalry Divisions counts as both Cavalry and Infantry divisions.They get bonus from Cavalry (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius). Bonus stack.

Motorized divisions count as motorized divisions. They get bonus from Cavalry (Specialist/Expert/Genius).

Mechanized divisions count as mechanized divisions. There are currently no no boni for that type of divisions in-game.

Armored Divisions count as Armored Divisions. They get bonus from Armor (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and General Trait (Panzer Leader).

All divisions also get bonus from Offense (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and Defense (Specialist/Expert/Genius).

All divisions fighting on core territory, if country fielding those divisions have modifier - Division attack/defense on core territory, they get that as a bonus.

All above bonus stack with each other and it is shown during combat under - Country modifier.

If division qualifies as Tank Destroyers, Anti-Tank etc. they still count as their respective branch - TD as Armored and AT as Artillery etc.

Default Icon for Division Template denotes what division unit type it is.

 

[nauticalweasel]

I think the wiki has the exact weightings.

 

[Emnel]

Yeah, you're right, I guess I should have checked wiki for updates.

That being said, what is described there isn't entirely correct. Artillery clearly isn't considered both "Artillery" and "Infantry" and there is an additional category of "Special Forces". And unlike what wiki says different units of the same type aren't being considered together - see the last example above.
That at first glance.

It does, however, state how the bonuses are applied, so there is that.

 

[Tecrinarep]

I've read somewhere that artillery divisions are also affected by infantry bonuses, but I might be wrong

 

[Aidan]

Wow thank you for this. I was unaware that the game classified artillery divisions.

 

[nauticalweasel]

Yeah, you're right, I guess I should have checked wiki for updates.

That being said, what is described there isn't entirely correct. Artillery clearly isn't considered both "Artillery" and "Infantry" and there is an additional category of "Special Forces". And unlike what wiki says different units of the same type aren't being considered together - see the last example above.
That at first glance.

It does, however, state how the bonuses are applied, so there is that.

I didn't know that, actually, I just remembered a page about how division icons are chosen that had all the weights.

 

[Emnel]

I've read somewhere that artillery divisions are also affected by infantry bonuses, but I might be wrong

Good catch. That is actually correct. They are however NOT affected by Special Forces bonuses.

This topic may or may not be related to the mistake I made in my Youtube Canadian campaign....

 

[Tecrinarep]

This is especially good to know when playing a nation that has an artillery and an infantry advisor.

 

[Zwirbaum]

If that is something you didn't know already let me just copy paste below my own post about it -

Artillery Divisions count as both Infantry and Artillery divisions. They get bonus from Artillery (Specialist/Expert/Genius), and Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius). Bonus stack.

Infantry divisions counts as Infantry divisions. They get bonus from Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius).

Special Forces divisions (Paratroopers/Marines/Mountaineers) count as Special Forces and Infantry Divisions. They get bonus from Commando (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius). Bonus stack.

Cavalry Divisions counts as both Cavalry and Infantry divisions.They get bonus from Cavalry (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and Infantry (Specialist/Expert/Genius). Bonus stack.

Motorized divisions count as motorized divisions. They get bonus from Cavalry (Specialist/Expert/Genius).

Mechanized divisions count as mechanized divisions. There are currently no no boni for that type of divisions in-game.

Armored Divisions count as Armored Divisions. They get bonus from Armor (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and General Trait (Panzer Leader).

All divisions also get bonus from Offense (Specialist/Expert/Genius) and Defense (Specialist/Expert/Genius).

All divisions fighting on core territory, if country fielding those divisions have modifier - Division attack/defense on core territory, they get that as a bonus.

All above bonus stack with each other and it is shown during combat under - Country modifier.

If division qualifies as Tank Destroyers, Anti-Tank etc. they still count as their respective branch - TD as Armored and AT as Artillery etc.

Default Icon for Division Template denotes what division unit type it is.

 

[Gort11]

I wish the bonuses did just apply to the brigades. This is mad.

 

[Emnel]

I wish the bonuses did just apply to the brigades. This is mad.

Yes it is.

Very much last gen PDX games kind of gamey, to be precise.

 

[TallTroll]

I wish the bonuses did just apply to the brigades. This is mad.

Welcome to combined arms warfare. The whole point was that a well designed division (divisions being the smallest unit generally considered capable of carrying out a fairly full range of tasks with organic units only) was greater than the sum of its' parts. There is perhaps a partial exception in the case of the pre-1940 Red Army, but even STAVKA had woken up to the fact that straight leg only divsions, and their silly little Mechanised Brigades that were rooted in 19th century doctrine weren't going to cut it any more; see the RA getting rekt by a couple of dozen Finns on skis. The various components of a well designed Division were supposed to be able to cover each others weaknesses, and allow exploitation of their strengths

Remember, the Panzer Divisions that destroyed the French Army (reputed to be the best army in the world at the time) were still using Pz 1s' as MBTs. Considered on a brigade by brigade basis, it would have been essentially impossible for the Wehrmacht to even properly contest the Battle of France, surprise attack notwithstanding. The Wehrmacht used a combination of superior doctrine, support tactics, logistics and communications to overcome the on-paper vastly superior French forces they faced, because German Divisions ran as well oiled combat machines, not toy formations for the Colonel to show off on parade.

To be fair, even STAVKA was capable of earning the lessons, but the switch over to actual Armoured Divs and Guard Inf was only just starting in 1940, and still very far from complete in 1941. By 1944/45, they were pretty damn good at it, with the whole "one tube per metre of frontage, not counting rocket arty wrecking the rear areas too" thing, and properly integrated inf/arm formations (tankodesantniki ftw)

 

[Gort11]

Welcome to combined arms warfare. The whole point was that a well designed division (divisions being the smallest unit generally considered capable of carrying out a fairly full range of tasks with organic units only) was greater than the sum of its' parts. There is perhaps a partial exception in the case of the pre-1940 Red Army, but even STAVKA had woken up to the fact that straight leg only divsions, and their silly little Mechanised Brigades that were rooted in 19th century doctrine weren't going to cut it any more; see the RA getting rekt by a couple of dozen Finns on skis. The various components of a well designed Division were supposed to be able to cover each others weaknesses, and allow exploitation of their strengths

Remember, the Panzer Divisions that destroyed the French Army (reputed to be the best army in the world at the time) were still using Pz 1s' as MBTs. Considered on a brigade by brigade basis, it would have been essentially impossible for the Wehrmacht to even properly contest the Battle of France, surprise attack notwithstanding. The Wehrmacht used a combination of superior doctrine, support tactics, logistics and communications to overcome the on-paper vastly superior French forces they faced, because German Divisions ran as well oiled combat machines, not toy formations for the Colonel to show off on parade.

To be fair, even STAVKA was capable of earning the lessons, but the switch over to actual Armoured Divs and Guard Inf was only just starting in 1940, and still very far from complete in 1941. By 1944/45, they were pretty damn good at it, with the whole "one tube per metre of frontage, not counting rocket arty wrecking the rear areas too" thing, and properly integrated inf/arm formations (tankodesantniki ftw)

What?

 

[TallTroll]

What?

Restricting Division wide bonuses to certain battalions within a Division defeats the whole purpose of a Division; to allow the pieces to function as a greater whole. It also runs counter to the whole point of Combined Arms doctrine, where several branches work co-operatively to achieve objectives none of them could have achieved individually. Wishing that such bonuses were restricted by battalion type would be madness, since that would set aside perhaps the greatest single advance in military science to emerge from WWII - not a feature I'd like to see in a WWII strategy game, personally

edit for correct terminology

 

[grandad1982]

Restricting Division wide bonuses to certain brigades within a Division defeats the whole purpose of a Division; to allow the pieces to function as a greater whole. It also runs counter to the whole point of Combined Arms doctrine, where several branches work co-operatively to achieve objectives none of them could have achieved individually. Wishing that such bonuses were restricted by brigade type would be madness, since that would set aside perhaps the greatest single advance in military science to emerge from WWII - not a feature I'd like to see in a WWII strategy game, personally

I don't see how it's a combined Arms bins at all. It's just an opaque way of doing it with a poor ui tacked on. It's literally not promoting combined arms as far as i can see.

 

[Emnel]

HoI4 division design system has enough combined arms integrated in it as it is and the way this bonus works has nothing to do with it.

As it stands a division made of 6 marine, 6 mountaineer and 3 artillery battalions will NOT receive benefits from +15/+15 Special Forces guy, but WILL get them from +15/+10 Artillery guy. Makes. No. Fucking. Sense.

The way I see it those bonuses should represent particularly well trained or utilized units of certain type. As in some nations have better trained cav, or armor, or special forces than others. The way it is now makes it both cringeworthingly gamey and absolutely terribly explained in game. Both indicators of bad design in my book.

 

[Secret Master]

At the very least, the UI needs to make this clear to players.

The question as to whether it needs to be by division or battalion is much more complicated.

 

[Colonel Chris]

First, excuse my english.

It's WAD.

You have wisely to consider, how you'll design your divisions and which kind of staff/bonus you'd like to earn. That's all.

What some of you want, is just more math for the engine...

 

[Zarathustra_the]

If it applied per brigade it would make combined arms far more powerful though, and it probably should

 

[Colonel Chris]

If it applied per brigade it would make combined arms far more powerful though, and it probably should

You are talking about stacking 2 bonuses per Division? That would be an exploit.