Military reports, info and statistics

[Silion]

It's obvious that before battles/missons we should have enough informations about terrain, weather, opponent forces etc. In fact, in Hoi4 devs said that these info we will have on hand. And that's ok.

But I want to emphasize "after battle" data, which is very important aspect of the game and warfare overall. We, as generals should know what are the results of our missions. We should have enough data to make right choices.
For example, how much our airplanes gave damage to the opponent's industry/military? How much casualities did they take? Etc. So we can know is our mission effective and if not, then why not.

And this might be connected closely to advices. I don't have clear idea about implementation, but for example in window with casualities which appears after battle (in hoi3 there was only info about how much men were killed), we can have button "more" or so. And there we would have mini info and conclusions about battle like : opponent had better motivated solidiers or with better equipment, opponent had armour forces or had good air support, which was crucial; we can't have enough AT to deal with their powerful tanks etc. This might help amateur players as well.

I don't know if this is good implementation, but you know a point.

And of course except battle reports ,I would like to have more overall reports at extended time frame (months, 3, months).
This was implemented in TFH, but I wish to have it more detailed.

What do you think?

 

[seattle]

Check out Darkest Hour (based on HoI2), that's what casualty stats are supposed to look like. The stats are such a vital analytical tool. They give you direct feedback about your convoy raiding efforts, bombing campaign over Germany (loss/kill ratio of bombers vs. interceptors), manpower etc.

Combine that with Vicky2-style post battle screens and you got a perfect game.

 

[juv95hrn]

The ledger could be done a lot better.

Total number of ships per nation sunk per category. I don't want to count manually if UK lost 26 DD flotillas any longer.

And you want to see date when a ship was sunk so that you know if a new ship of that category has been sunk. But I guess a fix according to the first demand would take care of that.

Etc, etc.

 

[adski42]

+1 I really like the idea of having info on why a battle was lost i.e. the opposition had better anti-tanks guns or its aircraft outperformed yours. This would add to immersion, help direct research efforts and simulate arms races.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

Way too many battles going on for this, would disable these popups instantly.

Abstract that into:

When your army or army group reaches an objective, you get a notification on how much damage you did to the enemy and how much damage you took.
When the enemy surrenders and you Annex/puppet them, get a notification of total losses, total damage done then.

What I really want to know are things like:

How many battles did my Interceptors fight? How much damage did they do to the bombers? How much manpower/IC did this cost me?
How many transports/escorts did I sink this month? How many were from Naval bombers, how many were from Subs? How much IC time damage did I take, and did they take as a result?
How many combat ships did I sink this month? How many were with Naval surface fleets? Naval bombers?
How much manpower did I lose this month due to fighting partisans? Where were the most outbreaks, so I can position more garrisons.

Stats like that once a month, would allow me to know exactly how the war is going for naval/air warfare, without the spammy popups every time 1 unit battles another units.

 

[General Baker]

Anyone here ever played a Tropico game?

The annual almanac detailing the state of the country for the past year was/is a really great feature. I imagine a set of monthly reports'd be equally great in HOI4.

 

[juv95hrn]

I sure hope the ASW tables works this time around.

 

[Secret Master]

So you want more after battle data. I can understand why. But let me offer a word of warning.

Accurate BDA in HOI3 carries significant consequences in the naval war. Historically, BDA was wildly inaccurate at times. The USS Enterprise was reported sunk on three separate occasions; she went on to earn more battle stars than any other US ship. And that's not like missing some midget submarine, it's a damn carrier. Miscounting carriers literally can change the course of entire campaigns.

In HOI3, having 100% accurate data on sunk ships gives players an edge they simply didn't have during the war. And it extends to bombing and land battles, too. I would be careful about wanting both highly detailed and highly accurate BDA in the game. it carries the potential for problems.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

So you want more after battle data. I can understand why. But let me offer a word of warning.

Accurate BDA in HOI3 carries significant consequences in the naval war. Historically, BDA was wildly inaccurate at times. The USS Enterprise was reported sunk on three separate occasions; she went on to earn more battle stars than any other US ship. And that's not like missing some midget submarine, it's a damn carrier. Miscounting carriers literally can change the course of entire campaigns.

In HOI3, having 100% accurate data on sunk ships gives players an edge they simply didn't have during the war. And it extends to bombing and land battles, too. I would be careful about wanting both highly detailed and highly accurate BDA in the game. it carries the potential for problems.

Thats a very good point, but if both the Human and the AI have accurate data, can't they both use the data to their advantage? If Naval bombers are doing more damage to convoys, couldn't the UK see this and put more fighters on combat patrol?

The other thing we could do is have data available but have it as estimated losses at first, similar to the way the Labor Bureau tracks employment now.

1st month would be estimate.
2nd month revised estimate. (with differences from previous month shown)
3rd month official counts (which are revisited at the end of the year).

And at the end of the game the data you can see is full details! Exact numbers you sunk/destroyed. Kill loss ratios. (possibly compare them to Historical numbers would be nice) If I could simply have this period at the end of the game, even more detailed then HOI3... which I thought was lacking, I would be happy.

 

[Secret Master]

Thats a very good point, but if both the Human and the AI have accurate data, can't they both use the data to their advantage? If Naval bombers are doing more damage to convoys, couldn't the UK see this and put more fighters on combat patrol?

Fully accurate BDA would favor the Allies over the Axis. The weaker powers, especially in naval warfare (remember, Japan is fighting an uphill battle against a country with several times more industrial capacity), benefit from unreliability in the numbers. The US will be much faster and bolder in their island hopping campaign when they match up dead capital ships with known capital ships; this is because they will know there is insufficient naval opposition to invasions. You can't even play the "Fleet in being" card if the enemy knows your fleet isn't in being anymore. This will end the war sooner, or at least cut Japan off from the resources of the DEI much faster, rendering them impotent to affect the wider war.

The continental Axis will face a similar situation with the air campaign over Germany. It is much easier to wage even a simple attritional air campaign (trading my planes for your planes in indecisive combats that just produce lots of shot-down planes) if you know the exact losses the enemy is taking. But if I know which Luftwaffe wings are fighting at 50% strength, I can do fancier tactics, too, like force more air combat and bombing in areas where weakened wings are on patrol.

And at the end of the game the data you can see is full details! Exact numbers you sunk/destroyed. Kill loss ratios. (possibly compare them to Historical numbers would be nice) If I could simply have this period at the end of the game, even more detailed then HOI3... which I thought was lacking, I would be happy.

Yes, that would be nice. I just don't want the USA to know that they bagged exactly 4 carriers in a naval battle and that 3 are left, unless they have invested substantially in espionage (both SIGINT and other stuff).

 

[Porkman]

I don't see why BDA's have to be accurate for enemy losses unless you have a significant intelligence advantage.

Your own losses should be accurate for obvious reasons, but this is what should determine the accuracy on enemy losses.

1) The length of combat - longer combats result in more accurate numbers all other things being equal.

2) Whether or not the same formations stayed in combat - if different divisions or air wings or ships were constantly entering or leaving the battle, that's going to make the reports more inaccurate.

3) Intelligence advantage - If you have a significant intel advantage over the enemy, then your reports on their losses are more accurate.

4) Victory! - Winning the battle gives you more accurate reports.

5) Occupying the battlefield or seazone after the battle - For a land combat, being able to count prisoners/bodies/wrecked equipment after your enemies have vacated makes the count more accurate. Similarly, in sea combats, it's pretty easy to guess that the Akagi has been sunk if your fleet picks up 200 sailors formerly of the Akagi. (This is also why I separated occupying the area and winning/losing. During carrier battles at sea, the distances mean that the victorious fleet might never go to where the defeated fleet was) For air battles, if you own the territory beneath the battle, your reports are more accurate since you can count the wrecks, get info from captured pilots and observe the battles from the ground.

 

[vertinox]

Yeah a Vicki 2 newspaper would be nice.

 

[RSalins]

Quote--"You will now see results like "10 heavy tanks destroyed" rather than some abstracted strength percentage"

This statement came from the latest DD. Having read this it has made me curious to know if we are now going to get more detailed combat reports. I believe that this would then be helpful in fulfilling ones production needs.

For example: I have 2 factories that produce tanks with and another factory just finishing being built. (I'm making the assumption that I will be able to build new factories as this has always been the case) 1 factory produces PzIII's and the other PzIV's. However I just received a combat report that tells me I just lost a major land battle and lost a significant amount of tanks. With this report I now need to decide if the new factory that was just being finished should produce the more expensive and more time consuming PzIV or should I build the less expensive and less time consuming PzIII. Doing the latter would probably more quickly replenish a force pool that was greatly depleted unexpectedly.

Only time and further DD's will answer this question but it certainly has me intrigued to determine what the overall thought process is on the above quote.