Military & Naval tech start outs at 1492 for various countries

[Emperor of Europe]

Originally posted by Balders:
The first standing navy was set up by King Alfred d.899 to try to defend Britons against the Vikings (I learnt this from a recent BBC documentary). A bit before this time [of the game], and not esp relevent I admit. But you may be interested.

Storm.

While I'm sure it's tempting for an Englishman to proclaim that the English invented the standing navies, you might want to look a bit further south. What about Rome? The Greek city states? Persia? Or pharaonic Egypt?

The E.


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Uhm... nice province. I
think I'll take it.

[This message has been edited by Emperor of Europe (edited 12-10-2000).]

 

[unmerged(13)]

Doomdark,

But what you don't understand is that certain countries automatically 'snowball' and increase their stats quite quickly from 1492. e.g. Poland would in her area of expetise, Sweden in her and so on. What's wrong weith Sweden at 0/0 and Order at her naval capacity? The Order mained a fairly large naval fleet that clashed with Poland's quite a bit. Poland maintained her own fleet even previous to the 17th century, largely made up of ships from Danzig and other Baltic countries.


Russia should not have higher land tech than Sweden. That is absurd. Furthermore, Poland should not have higher naval tech than Sweden

Again, different countries increase at a different rate. There is also the issue of game balance. You are NOT looking at the big picture, Doomie. Russia has a higher land tech because it is in the immediate firing like of the Polish player. Muscovy will be almost always busy with Golden Horde, Astrakhan, and trying not to be destroyed by the Poles. There is almost NO interraction between Sweden-Muscovy until the early 1500's by which time the Swedes have much higher stats.

Also you are making too much out of the stats than you should. Do you know how _small_ the difference is of ONE tech level when compared to another? e.g. land level 2 to compared to land level 3? It is _utterly_ _utterly_ small. We are not talking about the differences of later years, when one country is at level 20 another, at level 10.

Sapura

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'Kill first, calculate later'

Jan Karol Chodkiewicz, Polish-Lithuanian Hetman

 

[unmerged(133)]

Originally posted by willip:
Just out of curiosity, did any nations at this time have real standing navies? Were any ships built solely for naval duty? Due to my mid-atlantic point of view, the first such ships that I can recall were the ones built by Henry VIII of England.

I think the Portuguese actually were the most prominent in this area at the start of the era. They developed oceangoing ships with an impressing firepower for the period which basically was essential for keeping their vast colonial empire.

I'm not an expert on this, but maybe some of our Portuguese friends could enlighten us?

 

[unmerged(28)]

Originally posted by Doomdark:
Ok, here's my view on the starting tech stats...

They look ok on the surface - Sweden was a backwater vassal of Denmark after all - but when you start to compare the values you get the feeling that something is dreadfully wrong.

Russia should not have higher land tech than Sweden. That is absurd. Furthermore, Poland should not have higher naval tech than Sweden. The Teutonic Knights have naval tech 2 compared to Sweden's 0? Insane. Scotland has much better stats than Sweden here. I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Balance issues? Why should Sweden have worse tech levels than all of its neighbors? That is both unbalanced and inaccurate.

/Doomie

Hi Doomie,

The low swedish values at game start are intentional. First, naval tech, should absolutely be zero. There is nothing absurd with that. Sweden didn't have a navy to speak of until the days of Gustavus Wasa, and then a navy consisting of hired Hanseatic ships and crews. Secondly, land tech, Sweden was smashed by the totally superior danes in more or less every war they fought until 1613. Only one war was successful, namely the liberation war of 1520-1521. But that war wasn't decided on the battlefield. Instead the danish king understood that he had lost all of the support from the swedish nobility and the Union of Kalmar was not possible to uphold anymore. Speaking of the russians they were far more advanced than Sweden. Swedens cavalry was obsolete while the russians had a fair cavalry, however not matching the polish Hussaria. The infantry had little handheld fireweapons in either Sweden or Russia. However, the Russians had lots of cannon while the swedes had few. All in all this justifies
Land tech: Sweden (0), Russia (1)

/Greven

 

[unmerged(13)]

Sapura, I realize there are matters of balance to consider, yet Sweden is fodder to


No, she's not. I'm telling you from experience of 100's of hours of play testing this game that she is not fodder, even in her virginial state in 1492. However, Denmark and Muscovy do have advantages and so they should.


At the same time, if small differences in tech levels have such slight effect as you claim, it shouldn't really tilt the game balance should it?

No not too much, this is exactly what I mean. 1-2 land tech levels is not at all much of a difference. It is a difference, coupled with good generals and sizeable armies, it can make some difference, but not enough to utterly destroy the country.


Denmark has naval 2, land 2.


Greven, I think you have become too self-effacing in your drive for objectivity. Show a little pride! Take a lesson from me and Sapura


Rofl ....

Sapura

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'Kill first, calculate later'

Jan Karol Chodkiewicz, Polish-Lithuanian Hetman

 

[unmerged(252)]

It is obvious that this game at some point fell under the influence of some radical anti-Western zealots, and therefore a lot of the power issues are going to be totally screwy. We could argue with them all day, but will it change anything? Nah. They are very biased in their beliefs, and people like that NEVER change their minds, no matter how much factual evidence you present them. So why waste your breath? Just play the game as is. Use your own ingenuity to right the wrongs of the game design. Take it as a healthy challenge.

 

[unmerged(28)]

Originally posted by Vurbil:
It is obvious that this game at some point fell under the influence of some radical anti-Western zealots, and therefore a lot of the power issues are going to be totally screwy. We could argue with them all day, but will it change anything? Nah. They are very biased in their beliefs, and people like that NEVER change their minds, no matter how much factual evidence you present them. So why waste your breath? Just play the game as is. Use your own ingenuity to right the wrongs of the game design. Take it as a healthy challenge.

Hahah Very funny Joke!!!

/Greven

 

[unmerged(232)]

When talking about gamebalance remember that the game is a simplification of the real world. None of us (non-developers...) know how the AI decides what to do and to make sure that the AI behaves somewhat realistic the developers have probably been forced to tweak with the initial settings.

As long as I haven't played the game myself I wouldn't begin arguing about some relative minor (as we've been told they are) settings in the beginning of the game. Especially not with those that have played the game and says it works...

kdp

 

[Emperor of Europe]

Originally posted by Sapura:

Denmark has naval 2, land 2.

Hmm... I promised myself I wouldn't do this, since all those stats request must be a pain in the butt for ya, but please Sapura: could you? once more? just the rest of the stats for Denmark?

As for play balance and accusations of ahistorical countries, that's obviously a discussion that's going to explode on this board, when the game is published. Maybe everybody should just hold their breath until we can flame each other based on real experience with the game? Just a suggestion


Regards,

The E.

 

[Doomdark]

Vurbil, calm down. Since we are not beta testers we cannot judge the balance issues correctly.

True, I am disappointed that my fellow Swedes at Paradox are so afraid to make Sweden too powerful that they tend to castrate it instead. I tell you; Frenchmen, Americans or Brits would have had no such qualms about their own countries - quite the opposite. Just look at the board game.

It's a Swedish thing; 'Thou shalt not believe that thou art special.'

However, I trust the beta testers to have done a good job overall. Details can be corrected in patches or even by editing the scenario files ourselves.

Right now I am far more concerned with the release date...

/Doomie

 

[unmerged(13)]

Vurbil,

You = Western Boyar.


'nuff said.


Sapura

 

[unmerged(13)]

..and to finish this off, since I perfectly know that that last remark of Vurbil's was ment at me and me alone.

This is the last time I speak to you Vurbil, make a comment on your msg, or answer you in anyway. You are a little man, with outdated ideals and information and quite frankly you make me sick. You've made your feelings perfectly well known about me. Your comments and answers to me have been arrogant and quite frankly rude. You have no grace, you have no style and above all you know bugger all when it comes to European history.

I never claimed Poland was the center of the universe. I never claimed eastern Europe was superior to the west.

You _have_ claimed that certain countries were totally superior. What a surprise, England as the most powerful in the world, and France before that <shock, horror>. Anyone that would challenge your set views (you feel very comfortable with them) is obviously wrong and a zealot.

All I've done is simply equalized the balance. You have a big problem with that because it conflicts extremely with your own misguided views of the flow of history.


You, and people such as yourself disgust me and I'm making my feelings known so that everyone can read them.


Sapura

 

[unmerged(234)]

Originally posted by Doomdark:
Vurbil, calm down. Since we are not beta testers we cannot judge the balance issues correctly.

True, I am disappointed that my fellow Swedes at Paradox are so afraid to make Sweden too powerful that they tend to castrate it instead. I tell you; Frenchmen, Americans or Brits would have had no such qualms about their own countries - quite the opposite. Just look at the board game.

It's a Swedish thing; 'Thou shalt not believe that thou art special.'

However, I trust the beta testers to have done a good job overall. Details can be corrected in patches or even by editing the scenario files ourselves.

Right now I am far more concerned with the release date...

/Doomie

I have had more or less tha same fear but its almost impossible to make Sweden to weak in the start, Sweden of 1492 was a pitifull country, my concer in that part are if enough had been allowed for the incredible changes and modernisations done during the regim of the Vasa kings. What I have seen in the AARs they (Paradox and the testers) may very well have succeded.

 

[unmerged(13)]

Emperor,

Here are the Danish stats,


Monarch, Hans,

3 Diplomacy
3 Administration
4 Military

Country Stats,

Stability 5
Econ 4
Diplomacy 4
Expansion 2
Land Power 1
Naval Power 4


Army & Navy,

46 ships, navy at Copenhagen.

10,000 men at Copenhagen
25,000 men in Jylland
10,000 men in Ostlandet.


Sapura


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'Kill first, calculate later'

Jan Karol Chodkiewicz, Polish-Lithuanian Hetman

 

[unmerged(90)]

Originally posted by Doomdark:
True, I am disappointed that my fellow Swedes at Paradox are so afraid to make Sweden too powerful that they tend to castrate it instead. I tell you; Frenchmen, Americans or Brits would have had no such qualms about their own countries - quite the opposite. Just look at the board game.
/Doomie

Excuse me, but you don't know what you are speaking about. Not at all... Basing your comments on a few stats is extremely shortsighted.

Your fellow countrymen have made Sweden very powerful in general if not at game start, and a lot had had to be done to put Denmark back on track (for example). Just look at my Swedish AAR. I felt like Sweden has the best leaders on earth and lots of them at that.

No single French beta tester complained or whined about France, not even when its leaders list was downgraded by Grand Admiral Wallhead (an Englishman, heck). As a French boardgame computerised by Swedes, France and Sweden were very carefully covered because of better information sources and thanks to the efforts of all beta-testers, nearly all other countries have been checked and improved.

So please, forget those stats, they are just part of a game mechanism. The game as a whole is great. period.

 

[Emperor of Europe]

Originally posted by Sapura:
Emperor,

Here are the Danish stats,

Thanks a million. I might let you hold on a little longer to Warsaw in a multiplayer game just as a way to say thanks ;-)

Regards,

The E.

------------------
Uhm... nice province. I
think I'll take it.

 

[Doomdark]

Excuse me, but you don't know what you are speaking about. Not at all... Basing your comments on a few stats is extremely shortsighted.

I was not basing that comment on a 'few stats', but on what I feel has been a constant struggle to give Sweden the acknowledgement she deserves. The tech level thing is only the latest in a long series of discussions which began with the be-or-not-to-be playable nation threads.

Naturally, I cannot make comments on play balance since I haven't played the game. If you say that it works well then I believe you, even if Sweden has lower tech levels than a monkey with a stick.

Suffice it to say that it offends my sense of justice that my once-great nation, which dominated northern Europe for a third of the game time, constantly gets the short end of the stick (by a Swedish developer no less).

I wish to offend no one by saying this. I have the deepest respect for the knowledge and dedication of Paradox and the beta-testers; it is just the way I feel.

No single French beta tester complained or whined about France, not even when its leaders list was downgraded by Grand Admiral Wallhead (an Englishman, heck).

Why should they complain? France is a playable nation for everyone who buys the game and it was quite overpowered in the board game...

/Doomie

[This message has been edited by Doomdark (edited 12-10-2000).]

 

[unmerged(252)]

Originally posted by Sapura:
..and to finish this off, since I perfectly know that that last remark of Vurbil's was ment at me and me alone.

This is the last time I speak to you Vurbil, make a comment on your msg, or answer you in anyway. You are a little man, with outdated ideals and information and quite frankly you make me sick. You've made your feelings perfectly well known about me. Your comments and answers to me have been arrogant and quite frankly rude. You have no grace, you have no style and above all you know bugger all when it comes to European history.

I never claimed Poland was the center of the universe. I never claimed eastern Europe was superior to the west.

You _have_ claimed that certain countries were totally superior. What a surprise, England as the most powerful in the world, and France before that <shock, horror>. Anyone that would challenge your set views (you feel very comfortable with them) is obviously wrong and a zealot.

All I've done is simply equalized the balance. You have a big problem with that because it conflicts extremely with your own misguided views of the flow of history.


You, and people such as yourself disgust me and I'm making my feelings known so that everyone can read them.


Sapura

You realize of course that these comments only confirm everything I have said. You are an extremist that is fervently resentful of the 'enemy' you have created for yourself, in this case 'the West.' My ideas are outdated? No, your ideas--excessive nationalism, racism, and reactionary thinking--are the ones that are outdated. I have never expressed any sort of hatred of anyone on this board, nor have I claimed any kind of general 'superiority' of any people above another. I only wish to stay true to the facts. And Britain being the dominant power in the world from 1763 (or probably before actually) until WWII is a _fact_. There are economic, industrial, and military facts to back this up. Same with France being the dominant continental power. There are no facts to back up your hatred and resentfulness toward 'the evil West.'

 

[Johan]

Originally posted by Vurbil:
And Britain being the dominant power in the world from 1763 (or probably before actually) until WWII is a _fact_. There are economic, industrial, and military facts to back this up. Same with France being the dominant continental power.

Yep, in the 18th century England, France & Russia were the greatest powers
In the 17th century France, Sweden and Turkey was the greatest powers.
In the 16th century Spain-Habsburg, Poland and Turkey was the greatest power.


Yes, some nations (Poland/Turkey) start out strongly, but decline.
others like England start very impoverished and rises to greatness.


/Johan

 

[unmerged(232)]

Originally posted by Vurbil:

You realize of course that these comments only confirm everything I have said. You are an extremist that is fervently resentful of the 'enemy' you have created for yourself, in this case 'the West.' My ideas are outdated? No, your ideas--excessive nationalism, racism, and reactionary thinking--are the ones that are outdated. I have never expressed any sort of hatred of anyone on this board, nor have I claimed any kind of general 'superiority' of any people above another. I only wish to stay true to the facts. And Britain being the dominant power in the world from 1763 (or probably before actually) until WWII is a _fact_. There are economic, industrial, and military facts to back this up. Same with France being the dominant continental power. There are no facts to back up your hatred and resentfulness toward 'the evil West.'

Funny. I've never seen Sapura writing *anything* against 'the evil West'. He has made some comments on eastern Europa not being so backward in that period of time despite what many believe (btw I agree with Sapura completely).

When reading you earlier posting I thought you just had written a bad joke. Getting confirmed that you actually believe what you are writing....

Oh, well, you have degraded the people Germany and Poland in your postings before (I still remember our little discussion when you made remarks about not teaching Germany enough when America was in Germany in the Second World war). Feel free to start degrading Denmark too if that makes you feel important.

kdp