Military HQs and wtf. . .

[Modo]

its really not much a question of grouping.

Yet that's what you asked for.

In HOI2 it was easy to see the stack number - you easily could note - "oh an FM - 12 units can attack". Here you grab a couple of units and CANT see their combined width nor can you see the width of units in battle off the map. You have to get into detail with a lot of clicks to and back to see if they will be overstack or not - really not clear and helpfull.

Again, have you actually tried? In HoI3, you can select a whole corps for enough frontage to cover one province border. (You can use the corps HQ for that.) You can also easily select a whole army for major redeployment. It's not that you can't manage units manually, it's just a different system from the one in HoI2.

Furthermore one really should be forced to spend lots of time in nameing all units

So don't. You can stick to renaming only high level units that you need to find quickly, and use the command system from there. This will be similar to the HoI2 system, but with more control at the lower levels, should you need it.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Yet that's what you asked for.

your interpretation of what I asked for is wrong. Furthermore I already use this feature.

Again, have you actually tried? In HoI3, you can select a whole corps for enough frontage to cover one province border. (You can use the corps HQ for that.) You can also easily select a whole army for major redeployment. It's not that you can't manage units manually, it's just a different system from the one in HoI2.

yes - lots of clicking. In HOi2 i could see it off the map that the stack was too big or too small in terms of overstacking penalty. IN HOI3 you cant.

So don't. You can stick to renaming only high level units that you need to find quickly, and use the command system from there. This will be similar to the HoI2 system, but with more control at the lower levels, should you need it.

with 400 units you cant find anything "quick". And of course you need control over the lower levels. I rename up to level XXX HQs - still a major hassle to look for what you need.

 

[Modo]

yes - lots of clicking. In HOi2 i could see it off the map that the stack was too big or too small in terms of overstacking penalty. IN HOI3 you cant.

You are overstacking pretty much every place with more than five divisions, which is still visible.

with 400 units you cant find anything "quick".

Maybe we differ on the definition of "quick". After creating shortcuts to army HQs, you need 1 key press plus 2 clicks to select any division or whole corps, or 1 key press plus 1 click to select the whole army.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

You are overstacking pretty much every place with more than five divisions, which is still visible.

haveing 2 tank units with a width of 7 already overstacks an attack from 1 province (adding anything else) - if I have 3 more inf units there plus a hq plus anything else it aleady becomes problematic - not to mention if the corps all have different widths. Esp if I can only attack a nation (like belgium) from 3 provinces - I end up haveing a huge stack of units which are hard to micromanage the chaos that ensues after that - unless you march in a uniform fashion with the Hqs in the line too - which just make more counters on the map..

Maybe we differ on the definition of "quick". After creating shortcuts to army HQs, you need 1 key press plus 2 clicks to select any division or whole corps, or 1 key press plus 1 click to select the whole army.

my "definition" of quick - need MUCH longer pause than in HOI2 and many many more clicks.
Furthermore you can ctrl 1-0 - so only 10 stacks when on russian front you have 120 stacks...

 

[Modo]

haveing 2 tank units with a width of 7 already overstacks an attack from 1 province (adding anything else) - if I have 3 more inf units there plus a hq plus anything else it aleady becomes problematic - not to mention if the corps all have different widths.

And that was easier in HoI2 how, exactly? I'm not saying it's perfect, but no system is.

my "definition" of quick - need MUCH longer pause than in HOI2 and many many more clicks.

Please describe the "much longer pause" and "more clicks" bits, because I can't recall micromanaging armies with ease in HoI2. Maybe I missed some helpful UI features, who knows.

Furthermore you can ctrl 1-0 - so only 10 stacks when on russian front you have 120 stacks...

You do realize that I was talking about armies, and not stacks? If you have more, you'd just go higher and use shortcuts for army groups. Besides, having 120 shortcuts wouldn't really help, as you would be back to not knowing what is what.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

And that was easier in HoI2 how, exactly? I'm not saying it's perfect, but no system is.

again - you could see of the map the size of the stack thus know if you were going over the limit. Had 3 stacks of 4 units and you knew the total size was 12 and you could attack without a HQ. Here you have to click through all the units, see their sizes, remember their names, click the right ones, give and attack order and pray you didnt make a mistake.

Please describe the "much longer pause" and "more clicks" bits, because I can't recall micromanaging armies with ease in HoI2. Maybe I missed some helpful UI features, who knows.

see the above. Already much much less clicks - select a stack - have knowlegde of their stack size (AS THERE IS A TOTAL SUM NUMBER ON THE MAP) and potential penalty and click to attack.
2 clicks. In hoi3 you have to make sure the total width before you do anything, not to mention overcomplicate things when you have a 3-4 province attack. Calculator anybody?

You do realize that I was talking about armies, and not stacks? If you have more, you'd just go higher and use shortcuts for army groups. Besides, having 120 shortcuts wouldn't really help, as you would be back to not knowing what is what.

ctrl 1-0 armies (xxxx i assume you mean) doesnt help in easing micromanagement on a front with 60+ provinces. You dont attack with whole lvl xxx corps (nor with lvl XXXX) with hqs as some may have 1-5 units (or corps for XXXX) under them and you cant even see the width of the whole lvl XXX stack you selected - why should you? Must make it harder for the player..

 

[XHR]

There is quite an easy solution for organizing your OOB - use the Hoi3 Army Organizer or the Army Restructuring Tool (ART) you can find in the mod section.
After I discovered it, Hoi3 finally became playable, fun and felt right - and now I cannot stop playing

Although a great fan of Hoi2 myself, I just do not miss the endless click-orgies when going to war, using the AI is just so much cooler... (the working parts of it, that is)

 

[unmerged(12303)]

IMO it doesnt make sense to relagate combat related stuff to the AI in a war game...... and Id assume most people want to play war games to enjoy the combat themselves.

and really useing an add on just to handle armies just shows how un-userfriendly this game is..

 

[XHR]

IMO it doesnt make sense to relagate combat related stuff to the AI in a war game...... and Id assume most people want to play war games to enjoy the combat themselves.

and really useing a add on just to handle armies just shows how un-userfriendly this game is..

Depends, I'd say. In an RTS game you do not want to control every single soldier depicted in every unit, too - or do you? You can choose the level of detail in which you want to play Hoi3. Why not define the whole OOB with an external tool and automate your Armies? If that's not enough micro for you, why not automate your corps? Depending on the size of the corps that's still 3-5 times less micro than managing every division

Of course, you might as well go for manual control of brigades if you feel like it. But that makes the game nearly unplayable in a decent speed and without too much pauses.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Why not define the whole OOB with an external tool and automate your Armies? If that's not enough micro for you, why not automate your corps? Depending on the size of the corps that's still 3-5 times less micro than managing every division

Try playing mp - killing poland and then moveing your 100 units to france, setting them up, renaming so you know whats what, deploying new units, stacking them up all at lvl II-III speed.
No AI in MP games otherwise its game over too quickly.
Anyways I said most of my issues above - ill wait for 1.4 beta and maybe post some UI suggestion improvements as some should be very easy to do..

 

[Modo]

So you refuse to standardize your units, and you want to have total control, and you want to have everything easily visible/available. Ok, but pick two.

From a practical standpoint, you can standardize division/corps/army setups. This maximizes resource use (no "useless" practicals or research), and it means that you don't ever have to check what's under a selected HQ. Once that is done, you do this for quick redeployment:

Hit # for #. Army. Click to send the HQ to its destination. Click to select a corps. Click the selection bar. Click to send the HQ. Deselect the HQ, and click again to send all units to their province. Hit 1 and repeat for each corps.

OR. Hit # for #. Army. Cancel the stance, and activate new orders within enemy territory. Go back to watching the movie while your units redeploy.


On a side note, I would like to know how you manage a Thing like Barbarossa in multiplayer, so mostly without pausing? And where's the strategy part in a clickfest like that?

 

[unmerged(12303)]

So you refuse to standardize your units, and you want to have total control, and you want to have everything easily visible/available. Ok, but pick two.

you can have more control - Paradox can easily add a few short cuts in the some areas.

Like: when you select a stack of units they could add a button on the top - create HQ - which would attach the stack to a new HQ formed. Easy plus helps a lot when you have a lot of units comming out
Like: when you select a stack you could show the total width of the whole stack plus individual widths of the units.
Like: highlighting units up the chain of command - not only down the chain.
Like: adding an autofollow option for hq level XXX, XXXX and XXXXX of a predifined amount of terrains so the AI can move those HQ's forward when you have no time to do it IF YOU CHOOSE.
Like: add a number display just off the left top icon to indicate the total width of the stack
Like: even scrap the lvl XXX's so as to reduce the ammount of micro needed / plus increase what lvls XXXX can have under them.

Width is one of the most crucial parts of this WAR game - whilst they make it hard to determine at first glance- why for heavens sake?
Im sure others have ideas too.

From a practical standpoint, you can standardize division/corps/army setups. This maximizes resource use (no "useless" practicals or research), and it means that you don't ever have to check what's under a selected HQ. Once that is done, you do this for quick redeployment:

Hit # for #. Army. Click to send the HQ to its destination. Click to select a corps. Click the selection bar. Click to send the HQ. Deselect the HQ, and click again to send all units to their province. Hit 1 and repeat for each corps.

OR. Hit # for #. Army. Cancel the stance, and activate new orders within enemy territory. Go back to watching the movie while your units redeploy.

haveing just inf + art in all units and another stack with same tank builds is nowhere fun. P. might as well scrap all the other build possibilites. Furthermore looking for the corps with ENG, ART and AT (which you need v russia) is not solved by the suggestion.
All they need to do is make things a tad more friendly and USE the HUGE display the map offers not hide stuff under a tonne of clicks..

On a side note, I would like to know how you manage a Thing like Barbarossa in multiplayer, so mostly without pausing? And where's the strategy part in a clickfest like that?

oh you need to pause no question about it.. what else can you do? Just its a pain for all involved.

 

[unmerged(162341)]

The command structure concept is nautural one and basicaly correct in HOI III.

Hoevere its a bit to COMPLICATED.

They should implement basic unit to be Division and/o Corp level(having no HQ-s for single divisons aas well as for Corp),this way making simoplier organising army structure.

 

[Modo]

you can have more control - Paradox can easily add a few short cuts in the some areas.

You won't get an argument about that. I'm just saying that the current system isn't as bad as you paint it IMO.

If you didn't do that already, I suggest copying your suggestions to the HoI3 1.4 and the future thread, so that they get noticed.

haveing just inf + art in all units and another stack with same tank builds is nowhere fun. P. might as well scrap all the other build possibilites. Furthermore looking for the corps with ENG, ART and AT (which you need v russia) is not solved by the suggestion.

I didn't mean building one and the same division type, as that would indeed be boring (even though winning ). But it does make sense to build a basic infantry/mechanized/marine/whatever corps using a standard template, and then just copying it to fill whatever you need. If you also put those in standardized armies, you will always know what's under an HQ without sifting through menus.

You only really get to MM hell when trying to switch support brigades on the fly, which is hard at the moment. The concept of corps artillery/engineers/AA separate from the HQ is a notable omission in HoI3. Instead of trying to simulate that, I like using 4+1 and 2+2+1 designs for my corps and armies, so that I get general flexibility that works good enough even under AI control. I highly recommend you give that a try.

 

[AlanC9]

Esp if I can only attack a nation (like belgium) from 3 provinces - I end up haveing a huge stack of units which are hard to micromanage the chaos that ensues after that - unless you march in a uniform fashion with the Hqs in the line too - which just make more counters on the map..

I'm a little confused here. Are you having trouble before you attack Belgium, or after you've attacked and moved into Belgian provinces?

Mostly I'm confused because I didn't have any problem doing this myself.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

I liveing through micromanagement hell before and after belgium..

But overall salutations to anybody who after a 2-3 month attack on France or better yet Russia knows where which of his units are and can pinpoint them to 1 province with 1 click off the map.

 

[unmerged(172056)]

A note to deploying fresh troops to the right HQ:
When I start a game, I try to organize every given unit in a chain of command. Usually I have some e.g. corps HQ with space left, let's say in a germany scenario, two corps on the eastern front, one of them north and one of them south. Also one corps with space left on the western front.
I then deploy fresh units near the corps I want to fill, so in this example let's say fill up the north-eastern corps - put all units somewhere northeast. When you then click on the add to corps button (=> XXX), the corps with space left will apear in the list ordered by distance to the unit you selected (so in this case, the north-eastern corps will be first in the list).
Hope this helps some people.

 

[unmerged(149811)]

Hmm, if you like it fast, do it like the so called AI - use the existing HQs for mixing troops randomly and attach any new Division or at best brigade directly under the thq.

If you like building divisions - at best mix para/inf/mar and put this in the first line while using your tanks as harbor guards.

 

[unmerged(168056)]

I don't like only one thing about the HQ structure: The fact that the AI apparently doesn't know how to create/modify it. If you load an advanced game, you'll see a lot of units attached straight to the theatres. This is especially bad for majors, where there are enough leaders to have units benefit from the bonuses.


Put thos flotillas under an army HQ, and tell the AI to defend the areas you find important.


Is it so hard to create corps HQs for that army? That's how they usually did that in real life, you know.

It's entirely impractical to create a full on HQ structure for all 3 branches of the military. I have 6 ships, here, 10 ships there... that means 2-3 corps plus an army HQ just for a small portion of my fleet. I just want logical grouping instead of having a massive (unsorted!) list of ship groups in the upper right hand (+) pane thingy. It has nothing to do with AI control or any bonuses.

 

[Modo]

It's entirely impractical to create a full on HQ structure for all 3 branches of the military. I have 6 ships, here, 10 ships there... that means 2-3 corps plus an army HQ just for a small portion of my fleet.

The 5 unit per HQ limit only applies to land units. You can have one HQ acting as your Navy High Command. You'd only need to separate transport fleets, and put them under AI-controlled HQs where needed (not creating any additional HQs there). The same goes for the air force, but planes are better off under the other two branches, or on manual control (for strategic bombers).