Military History Experts: How were early modern wars fought, and how to model it?

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mudcrabmerchant

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Mostly from threads on these forums and one or two good Youtube channels, I have a basic idea of how wars were fought in the period, from a strategic point of view (which for this discussion is more important than how a tercio worked). However, I don't know enough to say anything about EUIV vs. real-life war, beyond "EUIV could model it better/in a more interesting way".

I hope this thread can be a place for military history enthusiasts to comment on the strategic side of war in the period, and for everyone to brainstorm how warfare in EUIV could be changed to model real warfare in a way that is more fun, more interesting, more deep, and more close to the historical reality.

It would also be great if more informed forumites could recommend good books on the subject.
 

Red John

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I personally wished they implemented the very good idea of attrition increasing based on how far you're in an enemy nation in relation to your closest unoccupied core province or occupied enemy province.

You didn't see France rushing to fight Spain's armies near it's capital in the 15th century, the logistics would be a nightmare.
 

DanubianCossak

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I believe Johan gave us (one of his famous) "no"s on this topic many times. The abstracted combat model is apparently one of EUs hallmarks or whatever.

I personally would love it though, but Grandwizard is Grandwizard.
 

unmerged(177849)

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Well, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but ...

The short answer .. and I don't know if properly modeling this would make a more "fun" game - is logistics. (I see someone anticipated me on this, but properly modeling it would be more than just a matter of increased attrition).

There were, of course, also changes in the way that wars were fought strategically over the time period. Fortifications became less important (gunpower ftw) to the point where the sieging mechanics of EU 4, over simplified at best, no long reflect reality at all by the late 18th century.
 

DanubianCossak

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I personally wished they implemented the very good idea of attrition increasing based on how far you're in an enemy nation in relation to your closest unoccupied core province or occupied enemy province.

Makes forts useful.

We need to avoid expanding combat by introducing or increasing "side effects". The attrition is one of the things you want to avoid like plague. The reason is simple really: you cant make the AI smart enough handle it. Our human brain is just that much more superior, there is no point in even trying to make AI compete with that. No matter how much resources you put into it (to the point where it becomes absurd), attrition and such stuff, will only create opportunities for human to beat the AI (or an unfair advantage). Same reason why EU3's AI suffered no naval attrition, or why EU4's AI gets a colonization distance boost, or a free diplomat, and so on.
 

Red John

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We need to avoid expanding combat by introducing or increasing "side effects". The attrition is one of the things you want to avoid like plague. The reason is simple really: you cant make the AI smart enough handle it. Our human brain is just that much more superior, there is no point in even trying to make AI compete with that. No matter how much resources you put into it (to the point where it becomes absurd), attrition and such stuff, will only create opportunities for human to beat the AI (or an unfair advantage). Same reason why EU3's AI suffered no naval attrition, or why EU4's AI gets a colonization distance boost, or a free diplomat, and so on.

I suppose I'm too used to multiplayer.

Oh well, ignore my suggestion.
 

Chamboozer

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The very highest level we can talk about when it comes to warfare in the period are the institutions of the states which created the armies. States of the time needed to be organized to produce armies in some way, and the differing institutions were what resulted in the Polish army being different from the French, being different from the Ottoman, and so on. For example, Ottoman landholdings at the most basic level were divided into fiefs (timar) given to cavalrymen (sipahi). This meant that the Ottoman Empire could reliably produce an elite cavalry army for much of the time period until ~1640 or so. On the other hand, it was very difficult for them to produce infantry forces. The only highly skilled infantry they could rely on were the janissaries produced through the institution of devşirme, the levy of children, and these were small in number until the end of the Sixteenth Century. All other infantry in the army were either volunteers, especially in Hungary, who may or may not be skilled, and mercenaries mainly after 1593. Technical specialists and artillerymen also tended to come from the devşirme. So the Ottoman institutions of the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries were geared toward producing large numbers of elite cavalry, smaller numbers of elite infantry, and a dedicated core of artillerists. This system was very effective but it wasn't flexible and the changes it underwent after ~1600 caused a lot of social upheaval.

This sort of thing isn't represented in the game in any way whatsoever. You just get 'manpower' and turn it into whatever kind of soldiers you want, and all of them have the same amount of skill as each other. The only variation is between regular army units, mercenaries, and any foreign troops you might have recruited if you're technologically behind.
 

DanubianCossak

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I suppose I'm too used to multiplayer.

Oh well, ignore my suggestion.

Dont get me wrong, i think youre definitely on the right track, id just tackle it from another angle.

Instead of adding increasing attrition, id consider adding operating ranges (or something similar) for armies.

Combine 25 regiments in a single army, fine. But they can only travel a distance of 400 km while retaining 100% discipline (or morale?). Wanna send them off 600 kms away? Sure. Option a.) send them, and they lose 20% org/disc option b.) recruit "supply trains" and attach them to the said army.

We need logistics seriously.
 

DanubianCossak

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The very highest level we can talk about when it comes to warfare in the period are the institutions of the states which created the armies. States of the time needed to be organized to produce armies in some way, and the differing institutions were what resulted in the Polish army being different from the French, being different from the Ottoman, and so on. For example, Ottoman landholdings at the most basic level were divided into fiefs (timar) given to cavalrymen (sipahi). This meant that the Ottoman Empire could reliably produce an elite cavalry army for much of the time period until ~1640 or so. On the other hand, it was very difficult for them to produce infantry forces. The only highly skilled infantry they could rely on were the janissaries produced through the institution of devşirme, the levy of children, and these were small in number until the end of the Sixteenth Century. All other infantry in the army were either volunteers, especially in Hungary, who may or may not be skilled, and mercenaries mainly after 1593. Technical specialists and artillerymen also tended to come from the devşirme. So the Ottoman institutions of the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries were geared toward producing large numbers of elite cavalry, smaller numbers of elite infantry, and a dedicated core of artillerists. This system wasn't really flexible and the changes it underwent after ~1600 caused a lot of social upheaval.

This sort of thing isn't represented in the game in any way whatsoever. You just get 'manpower' and turn it into whatever kind of soldiers you want, and all of them have the same amount of skill as each other. The only variation is between regular army units, mercenaries, and any foreign troops you might have recruited if you're technologically behind.

Brilliant example of much reality the game's oversimplification destroys. o7
 

Choccookies

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The other problem here is the insane timeline of this game. There is really no similarity between wars in the mid 15th centry and those in the early 19th century and no way within the confines of this game to reflect those changes. Castillon (1453), considered to be the final battle of the 100 years war was an hour long engagement comprising somewhere between ten and twenty thousand men and a couple of hundred guns and about 4000 casualties. Attempting to compare this to early 19th century warfare with engagements of quarter of a million men, and up to a hundred thousand casualties in a single days fighting is just silly.
 

potatato

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By early modern do you mean the 16th and 17th centuries or do you mean the 18th century?

Because in the 18th century one of the most important things about a soldier was how fast he could reload and then shoot again. A reason the Prussian army became so elite was by the fact that they were trained to fire in a sort of volley where one column shot then reloaded while the next column shot instead and so on and so forth as a way to keep the enemy always under heat. That's what I remember most at least, I might be wrong on this.
 

Lakedaimon

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It's a shame that forts do not have the strategic function they had in real life.

Forts were a way to make it impossible for the enemy army to advance without first sieging them one after the other. In this game you can just ignore them and rush to the army, or to inland provinces with lower forts. It really makes it hard to survive as a smaller nation without expanding.
 

mcmanusaur

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Modeling supply range, as many have suggested in this thread, would definitely add to the game's representation of war. Another simpler factor is just how costly it is to occupy enemy territory, and also garrisoning friendly territory for that matter. Neither of these things have significant costs in the game as far as I know, and this is a big reason that unrealistic carpet sieging is the dominant strategy in wars.
 

Closet Skeleton

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A reason the Prussian army became so elite was by the fact that they were trained to fire in a sort of volley where one column shot then reloaded while the next column shot instead and so on and so forth as a way to keep the enemy always under heat.

Everybody did that. Maurice of Nassau helped introduce volley fire in 1600. Polish infantry actually had a faster rate of fire at times.

But the Prussian army under Frederick the Great was never that novel or revolutionary. It was just disciplined enough to put into practice the ideas everyone else in theory followed but didn't always. Maurice of Nassau and Napoleon won battles by breaking established rules, Frederick won battles by following them more rigorously.
 

profxyz

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If you're thinking military strategy, I can recommend reading

David Chandler's The Campaigns of Napoleon and also

Jones & Wanklyn's (ha ha) A Military History of the English Civil War. This one is really the only detailed military strategy book (at least on Amazon UK) that I could find that is set in the 17th century.

I'd also recommend Parker's "The Grand Strategy of Philip II" to see how policy was made and executed (or rather, not executed in this case) from the viewpoint of the monarch.

Obviously, a more 'realistic' EUIV is going to be a much, much harder game and so in a sense it won't be more fun. But for what it's worth-

1. Higher warscore for battles. Losing battles was a big thing during the timeframe because the destruction of a defending army would mean that everything that army was supposed to defend would instantly become defenceless. 1st Newbury was important in the English Civil War because if the Royalists had managed to destroy Essex's army, there was little chance London could be held - or more importantly, Parliament THOUGHT there was little chance London could be held. So victory/death in wars could literally be decided by one battle (even more so than EUIV's current calculations).

2. Increased importance of forts. Forts are generally situated at important chokepoints/communications nodes and thus could literally 'seal off' sections of territory to the enemy, thus denying free movement of armies anywhere like EUIV does. The Royalists placed huge emphasis on taking Bristol and Gloucester in order to get a stronghold over the Severn basin and thus link up the Royalist territories of Wales and the Chilterns. It's going to be hard to model this; I think the best task would be to make certain mountain ranges impassable a la CKII, so that the player is 'funneled' into smaller regions. Making rivers actual barriers could also help.

3. Intelligence and Communications. Obviously with the max speed on land at the time being the full gallop of a horse, armies generally didn't have a clue as to where main enemy strength was or how many men they had; and even if they did they might not be able to order troops around as effectively as they would have liked - the failure of William Waller to assist Essex to his south led to Parliamentarian disaster at Roundway Down and the fall of much of the Southwest to Royalists. I guess you could mask troop numbers fairly easily, and implement a communications delay between issuing orders and actually executing them.
 
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Chamboozer

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A few basic problems which we can explore in more detail:

  • Finances. Everyone simply has more money in the game than Early Modern governments tended to in reality. It would be unreasonable to expect Paradox to represent the full depth and breadth of differences in taxation and spending between different states, but suffice it to say that both armies and navies don't cost enough. This is tricky though, because unless it's designed well it could be less fun to have to deal with cost rather than more. One potential way to deal with it would be to go the 'Sweden' route and let armies loot territory they're in in exchange for costing less maintenance - bellum se ipsum alet.
  • The state army is the only army. Right now the only way to have an army is to utilize state resources, state money, and state manpower. If your country runs out of those, you cannot fight. This isn't historical. Despite the centralization of power in the Early Modern Era, non-state actors could still produce military forces of immense strength (and lots of money, too!). This ties into the issue above. Think of Poland-Lithuania during the Deluge: the Commonwealth's army was easily defeated in 1655/6 and almost the entire country was overrun by Sweden, Russia, and the Cossack State, yet before too long they were able to recover. Sweden's policy of making war pay for itself, its soldiers' disrespect for Catholicism, and failure to appease the Polish nobility led to mass insurrections in the countryside as the magnates used their large retinues and great wealth to combat the Swedish occupation, eventually enabling the king to return from exile. This isn't really covered by the game's 'rebels'.
  • The AI and peace. Thanks to Jomini for bringing up this issue: The AI's reluctance to make a quick peace, both when losing and winning, results in wars of total occupation occurring very frequently because the AI is reluctant to give up provinces until it's had much of the country occupied. By that time it is usually weak enough that it is desirable to occupy even more in order to get a greater peace deal, and so the spiral continues. I'm sure he can explain it more eloquently than I can. :p
  • The relationship between fortresses and field armies. I started a thread a while ago on this topic, and it's which I think is particularly important. I don't still hold to 100% of the views I put forth in the linked thread, but most of them are still relevant. Mainly, that the current system in which armies have no means at all to avoid enemy armies if they can't get out of a province in time is unrealistic to an extreme degree, and that letting them garrison fortresses is one possible solution to that problem (although not a particularly historical one, but I see few better alternatives). Also, that fortresses should have a means to fight back against besieging armies. Currently they're completely passive during sieges, which could do with changing. Siege warfare in general needs to have more depth. For most of the time period it was siege warfare, rather than field battles, which made up the bulk of major military activity. For the period of warfare between Austrian Habsburgs and Ottomans between 1526 and 1683 there were countless sieges and raids launched back and forth, and a whopping two major battles, Mezőkeresztes in 1596 and Szentgotthárd in 1664. In the game battles are ahistorically ubiquitous.

And finally, the one simple change I would make to the military system which I post in every thread like this and which annoys me every time I play: stop giving defensive bonuses to besieging armies!
 
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Jaol

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Well the most obvious difference between Clauswitz games and warfare in any era really, is that battles didn't take months. Nations couldn't start a battle in Flanders and bring in reinforcements from Italy. But that's basically impossible to change without switching to a turn-based game.

Another very high-level problem with the game is that it doesn't represent the various ways in which units or even armies could be largely autonomous. One example of this is that the player (and AI) know where all their own/allied units are, and can time their arrival, whereas in reality commanders often had a great deal of trouble coordinating with nearby friendlies, let alone ones on the other side of the globe. Another example is mercs--in the game, you hire them, and then they fight for you loyally; in reality, that wasn't always the case (there's a reason why Machiavelli stressed the importance of having owns arms). Again--this is probably not something that would/could be changed in an EU game. You're playing some sort of spirit of the nation, not the actual government.
 

Incompetent

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[*]The state army is the only army. Right now the only way to have an army is to utilize state resources, state money, and state manpower. If your country runs out of those, you cannot fight.

This isn't quite true: you can borrow money and hire mercenaries. I think the basic manpower + mercs think works OK, unless we want to go to the level of detail of Crusader Kings and have vassals contributing only part of their forces according to how they feel about the liege and so on. What I'd like to see though is more of a 'supply curve' on manpower. If you're at full manpower, you can draw on the fittest recruits from the most loyal provinces, maybe even professional soldiers late in the game. But as you draw down the pool, you're starting to pull in more and more people who have important jobs in peace-time, who are outside the ideal age bracket, who don't like to be conscripted, who are only loyal to their immediate lord and don't care about the kingdom and so on. When it comes to the effects on agriculture, there's also a big difference between the number of people you can get to fight one battle in winter, and the number you can take abroad on campaign throughout the harvest season. I think your country should automatically start getting penalties to tax and production, stability and revolt risk once a certain chunk of your manpower pool has been spent, as well as penalties to military effectiveness. We shouldn't have situations where a country *starts* a war with zero manpower reserves and happily fights away with existing troops and mercs for another 5 years, refusing to sign even a white peace because of 'length of war'. A country with no manpower pool should already be at the point of collapse.
 

Jomini

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A few of the big things here that aren't historical:
1. Attacker and defender attrition are imbalanced. In EUIV you have a huge stack in one of your provinces, I have a huge stack in one of your provinces. I take siege attrition, you sit there with nothing. The single biggest cause of attrition in this era? Disease. Does it give a rat's ass about which side of the border a big unsanitary nightmare of a armed camp resides? Nope. Well what about other forms attrition? Desertion, well that get's iffy it was easier to run away nearer to home (you were more likely to speak the language and you likely had some family contacts somewhere to hide you) but you had more reason to run away in enemy territory (if you were losing, not dying is great motivation). Starvation generally favored the attack during maneuvers and the defenders during sieges. On the move you can pillage enemy peasants to the bone - slaughter the draft animals, eat the seed grain, and even rip up trees to eat the roots (though I can't think of a time that was done when you weren't already mostly dead). Doing this dispoiling on your own turf means you pay for it - either you end up paying the bill directly or your tax revenues fell as your peasants had less money (thanks to having to replace the foraged items) or simply were dead (and generally dead men paid few taxes). On defense, normally cities were better about having large grain stockpiles and most fortified locations tried to command either roads or more commonly rivers. Moving grain overland to support a siege was expensive as heck and hard. Moving it down rivers was easier and the guy who controlled the fort with the guns had a decided advantage using riverine craft.
2. This is turn leads to one of the most glaring inaccuracies of EUIV warfare: rivers aren't worth a damn. Yeah you get a bonus defending behind them. That's pathetic. Look at every major campaign in Europe notice how some ground is constantly tread over, notice how people do really weird non-straight lines. That is because they are following river courses. Moving artillery was a bear. Moving men, also hard. Wagons? They ran into a nasty, nasty rocketry equation where you need to bring fodder. But that means more wagons, meaning more horses and in turn more fodder. Enter rivers. Rivers were 10x as cheap to move goods and often multiplicatively faster as well. Why could the Ottomans field so many more men and artillery pieces in the Balkans than in Persia? Because the Danube is the equivalent of a twelve lane super highway while the Persian front tended to lack anything better than a two lane dirt road. Virtually ever major maneuver from the EU period makes no sense without rivers giving faster movement, better reinforcement, and vastly more timely information (as over long distances rivers could make far better time than horseback riders). Likewise, if you were going to ship food in for a siege, there was an outside chance you might be able to feed the siege camp from the river. There was virtually no chance of moving food more than six days march overland.
3. Wars revolved around territory. Yeah some wars were decided by annihilating the enemy army, but they were rare. More often you wanted to take territory, garrison it, and possibly bait the enemy into a fight. For much of the era, armies could decline fights for a long time - so you either pillaged and burnt the place until the king defended his people or you took some place valuable and either made your demands in exchange for returning the place or just kept it instead. In a long campaign you might have only a single siege - but it would be of somewhere important and everyone would come to the table - because it falling meant the enemy couldn't relieve it and more such sieges were quite likely. If somewhere you owned was under siege and you just let it fall without a fight, well the locals might decide they are better off under new management and other strong points might not be willing to hold out while starving later.
4. Artillery in the early period was far more about morale and shock (not as defined by Pdox) than about gunning manpower down. Cannon are great at killing people in late era, but early on firearms and cannon just broke the nerves of people opposing them. We take for granted in our world that things can be propelled at insane speeds easily, that blinding lights happen at any crappy disco, and the deafening sound just kinda happens when people drive buy with too expensive of stereos, in the EU era, that just wasn't possible. For a lot of non-professional soldiers, the first time they might have seen anything like a cannon going off would be when the guy next to them gets ripped in half by a cannon ball. There are no movies, few paintings of this even exist, and descriptions just don't do it justice. This is particularly bad when you look at the effect of artillery on less militarily proficient armies. Take the Chinese against the Dutch in Taiwan. The Chinese set up their cannon in range of the Dutch with no defensive works. The Dutch fire through the night (hitting little), in the morning they can finally aim and fire into the army surrounding the Chinese cannons. There is a brief slaughter of manpower at the guns - and then the army breaks and runs out of cannon range - leaving the dead, wounded, and the so terribly precious cannon behind. Eventually, yeah the artillery became great infantry killers, but for a lot of the EU era they broke morale more than they actually killed people.
5. Heavy cavalry was insanely good and insanely expensive. Now there was terrain where heavy cavalry sucked, but the average Polish heavy cavalryman could ride over a Janissary with ease; most Janissaries choose to buy reasonable firearms and only the most unwieldy firearms could punch through heavy plate. Archers and crossbowmen also tended to do poorly against heavy cavalry. On the plains, the Poles really were absolutely freaking terrors against just about everyone until the Swedes made it big.
6. Which leads to something alluded to earlier in the thread - troops at the same technology level were very different. Hussars cost a fortune, but on the plains they can destroy infantry. Line infantry (e.g. Wellington's troops) were expensive, but devastating at fire; column infantry were cheaper and crappier at fire, but they were much better for shock actions. Right now every troop type for a given technology costs the same and there is jack all you can do to effect the quality of your troops outside of national ideas, in reality you could opt for highly trained profesionals, exceedingly expensive nobles and their retinues, or impressing all the rabble who can light a match. This also allowed you to better match your troops to your terrain.
7. Wars were not death matches. Even against heathens, heretics, or "atheists", very few states became dead enders. If you lost one big battle, chances are you would lose more. Nations were vastly more willing to lock in their gains or cut their losses than in game. This is really bad, if I have to effectively kill the Swedish army to take Skane, why not hit it just a bit harder and siege a few more provinces to take all of southern Sweden? The whole peace system has gotten backwards and is showing its age. In this time period prolonged wars faced diminishing returns, but the engine makes them effectively increasing returns affairs (to long before you can take any real gains, to short before you can take maximal gains) and frankly makes it better to go big in one war than small in two or three.
8. Up until, maybe Frederick the Great, reinforcement armies rarely accomplished anything after the battle was joined. It isn't really until Napoleon's logistics that you had controllable method to march armies a decent bit distant from each other and then join forces after the battle was begun. This had profound effects - this made fortifications vastly more important - as you could shelter in those until reinforcements came. Likewise, your invading armies were limited in size - they could only manage so much frontage on the march before the left and right became unable to support each other; however smaller frontage means less farmland to pillage and hence smaller armies you could support.

Which leads me to my last issue. Everyone and their brother has a suggestion about introducing supply lines in some complicated fashion to EUIV. This idea needs to die. Supply lines as the concept currently exists did not exist until the very tail end of the era. Armies in this period needed food, shot, powder, money, and maybe clothing. If you took every wagon in the Imperial army, you couldn't make a dent in the food supply. Armies on the march between battles were pretty much self-sufficient. You need food? Rob a peasant. You need money? Rob a merchant. You need shot? Rob a church. You need powder? Rob a magazine. You need clothes? Rob anyone. It really was the case that armies ate off the land, they recast their (and the enemy's) shot with a small bit of lead bought or pillaged. Powder was about the only really dear military supply, but you only used it when you fought and you could often buy it wholesale in enemy territory or just loot it from captured arsenals. But what about "lines of communication" those were pretty much what it sounded like - they were paths to and from the rear down which official information could travel. Given the snail's pace of news in this era, communication meant the difference between knowing there was a peace and fighting a completely useless battle (sea New Orleans, battle of). Getting cut off meant you had no more pay coming up from the rear (so it was really pillage or die at that point) and that you could blunder into anything - like say your French enemy's new Spanish ally. Fortunately, this, above everything else would make EUIV unplayable. You have instant access to all information in your empire and you can instantly recoordinate your troops everywhere in the world. Ditching this instant communication would be hell on the AI, so I vote to keep the cellphones in the 15th century. But this doesn't mean we should import Vicky era supply lines into EUIV.
 

lordboy54

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Brilliant example of much reality the game's oversimplification destroys. o7

What? It's an abstraction of a system way too complex to properly implement and be fun in a game like EU4. People seem to believe that just because EU4 goes through history and you can choose whatever date you want and such, that it is a history simulator. It isn't. It's a game, a very fun game that has historical elements to it, but that's it. I don't think the guy you quoted's point was that it destroyed anything, just that the way warfare, recruitment, and espeically logistics worked were very complex. I think a better conclusion to make of the post is that it wouldn't be realistic to expect any such extreme simulation in game, since it would be tedious and difficult in both implementation and usage.