Migrating pops from sectors

[puggle999]

In the latest stream (hail the Blorg) we saw the ill-judged colonization of an ocean world, too salty for Blorgish tastes, yet acceptable for Space Owls. Unfortunately, there were not masses of space owls about for resettlement.

At the moment, we can just pop a planet out of a sector briefly to do this kind of resettlement, albeit for a punitive amount of influence mana. This seems a bit odd. If I'm forcibly moving people to a planet, surely my entire empire is ready for it? If I enslave a planet and evacuate its natives to serve in their billions across the galaxy, far from home, it shouldn't matter if I don't consider the border rubble as a core planet.

In less flowery language, why can't we resettle pops from the sectors? It makes no sense not to and it would allow a truly multicultural empire.

 

[NekomimiMaiden]

As a note, they were kinda doing that in the most ridiculous way, to keep up with the Blorg mentality. A far cheaper way to sort it out would have been to offer Free Migration policy, which would have allowed the unhappy Blorg to move somewhere better and any unhappy Sibulans would have moved out to the 60% happy, soon-to-be Blorg-free colony.

They didn't, though, because they really didn't want their owl friends running away.

Basically a colony ship doesn't contain an entire pop. It's "Hey, we need "Volunteers" to settle a new planet". So you round up enough people who are okay with the idea and fit your criteria [species and ethos], and send them on to start the new colony. Forced resettlement is basically taking everyone from their homes in the night, putting them on ships, and sending them out without giving them any choice in the matter. That's why it costs Influence.

 

[puggle999]

It should cost influence, what I'm contesting is not being able to take them direct from their homeworld if it's part of a sector. If sector A has all my arctic dwellers and my core planets are tropical (therefore uninhabitable to the arctics) I should be able to force one of them to move to a planet of mine without needing to take direct control of their planet, resettle the pop and return control to the sector.

 

[Exemplar Voss]

Why? Sector planets aren't in direct control, so why would the ruler(s) be able to force the population there to relocate?
If you put a planet in a sector, you're giving up some measure of authority, and that includes the authority to force people out of their semi-autonomous region.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

Yes, but the sector doesn't have the authority to move people, and yet your government policy states that you do. Consistently then either the sector should move people around if you bung up a colonisation, or you should be able to move pop's in and out of the sectors.

 

[Fonz]

Since the sector/core world thing is similar to what we have in real life as provincial or state and federal government, it seems weird that sector planets cannot be resettled. It would be like the USSR wanting to populate the East and Vladivostok, but they can't move people that are in different oblasts, and only people in the Moscow vicinity.

 

[grandad1982]

Yeah feels like unnecessary clicks as you can just remove the planet from the sector and then put it back, so why force you to do that and not just have them in the list to begin with? If it's too keep the list a manageable size then just make it filterable.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

Yeah feels like unnecessary clicks as you can just remove the planet from the sector and then put it back, so why force you to do that and not just have them in the list to begin with? If it's too keep the list a manageable size then just make it filterable.

Except meddling with sectors costs influence so that's a thing. Maybe if moving pop's in and out of sectors costs 20 extra influence or something.

 

[grandad1982]

Except meddling with sectors costs influence so that's a thing. Maybe if moving pop's in and out of sectors costs 20 extra influence or something.

Does it? I must have missed that.

 

[Oscot]

Since the sector/core world thing is similar to what we have in real life as provincial or state and federal government, it seems weird that sector planets cannot be resettled. It would be like the USSR wanting to populate the East and Vladivostok, but they can't move people that are in different oblasts, and only people in the Moscow vicinity.

This seems entirely reasonable to me.
You take one of your Party comrades aside, say to him "Congratulations comrade, you are now local Politburo chief for Sverdlosk oblast. You have complete authority over population resettlement, mining operations, and infrastructure construction. Just forward 50% of your revenue to the Orgburo every month and the rest we leave to you".
Boom, Sverdlosk oblast sector.
Then when you decide Vladivostok needs more pops, you can't just turn round to Sverdlosk Politburo Man and say "Actually, I changed my mind, you're NOT in charge of population resettlement in Sverdlosk. I am in charge of population resettlement in Sverdlosk. And I'm deporting 500,000 Sverdloskites to Vladivostok".
...well actually you CAN turn around and do that, because you're Space Stalin. But while you as Space Stalin are loading pops onto the Trans-Siberian Railroad, this really means Sverdlosk Politburo Man isn't in a functional sense in charge of the oblast in question, is he?

And that's why you have to take it out of a sector to do stuff with it.

 

[ApocalypseMao]

This seems entirely reasonable to me.
You take one of your Party comrades aside, say to him "Congratulations comrade, you are now local Politburo chief for Sverdlosk oblast. You have complete authority over population resettlement, mining operations, and infrastructure construction. Just forward 50% of your revenue to the Orgburo every month and the rest we leave to you".
Boom, Sverdlosk oblast sector.
Then when you decide Vladivostok needs more pops, you can't just turn round to Sverdlosk Politburo Man and say "Actually, I changed my mind, you're NOT in charge of population resettlement in Sverdlosk. I am in charge of population resettlement in Sverdlosk. And I'm deporting 500,000 Sverdloskites to Vladivostok".
...well actually you CAN turn around and do that, because you're Space Stalin. But while you as Space Stalin are loading pops onto the Trans-Siberian Railroad, this really means Sverdlosk Politburo Man isn't in a functional sense in charge of the oblast in question, is he?

And that's why you have to take it out of a sector to do stuff with it.

Either Space Stalin orders the local Politburo chief (tool) to round up the necessary people or Space Stalin sends Space Beria to do the rounding up, bypassing said tool entirely. After all, what's the tool going to do? Object? I hope he's ready to revolt (interesting option, actually. +% revolt risk?) or wants to enjoy a short retirement in the Space Lubyanka...

 

[Oscot]

Either Space Stalin orders the local Politburo chief (tool) to round up the necessary people or Space Stalin sends Space Beria to do the rounding up, bypassing said tool entirely. After all, what's the tool going to do? Object? I hope he's ready to revolt (interesting option, actually. +% revolt risk?) or wants to enjoy a short retirement in the Space Lubyanka...

All irony aside, attempting to run with no devolution at all and so pretty much being massively over your planet cap is touted by many pointyheads as the main reason the Soviet Union was an economic cripple and ultimately wend *fwub*.

Not me, though. I think it collapsed because of Betamax.

P.S. You go to hell, thread telling me to stop talking about communism.

 

[Surimi]

As a note, they were kinda doing that in the most ridiculous way, to keep up with the Blorg mentality. A far cheaper way to sort it out would have been to offer Free Migration policy, which would have allowed the unhappy Blorg to move somewhere better and any unhappy Sibulans would have moved out to the 60% happy, soon-to-be Blorg-free colony.

That's not a perfect solution though. For one, the unhappy Sibulans are likely to be the ones still clinging to traditional xenophobic ethics, who will then move and presumably proliferate, ultimately creating a whole planet of unfriendly racist birds instead of nice, friendly birds. I think collectivist empires in particular could get a lot of use out of using resettlement to deliberately spread out potentially rebellious pops and speed up integration, rather than letting them all wander off.

 

[puggle999]

Then when you decide Vladivostok needs more pops, you can't just turn round to Sverdlosk Politburo Man and say "Actually, I changed my mind, you're NOT in charge of population resettlement in Sverdlosk. I am in charge of population resettlement in Sverdlosk. And I'm deporting 500,000 Sverdloskites to Vladivostok".
...well actually you CAN turn around and do that, because you're Space Stalin. But while you as Space Stalin are loading pops onto the Trans-Siberian Railroad, this really means Sverdlosk Politburo Man isn't in a functional sense in charge of the oblast in question, is he?

And that's why you have to take it out of a sector to do stuff with it.

Taking it out of sector just seems a weird way to do it though. If you decide (and I'm dropping the soviet metaphor here because it gets distasteful) that the recently conquered space lizard home, now a sector in its right, could do with more blorg and less lizards, it seem punitive that you have to spend influence to remove it from a sector, move the pop then re-add it.

This is too much micro and looks like a kind of cheese, which it shouldn't be. I want to move all my pops. If anything, those on the imperial homeworlds would be the last to be moved.

 

[Oscot]

Why would you put it IN a sector if you intended to do major social engineering on it under the direct command of the Politburo Chairman?

I guess I'm comfortable with the influence hit from tinkering about with it because it is in a sense the exact same thing as CK2's violation of the vassal contract. You gave the sector to some guy and told him you trusted him to do as he sees fit. When you then go meddling in it again, of course all the other politicos in your Empire are going to view you as a despicable power-hoarding micromanager who reneges on his word.

So in a sense, you're right, it is a lot of micro to go meddling. But it SHOULD be a lot of micro because you're not supposed to go meddling at all.

 

[puggle999]

If, for example, you hadn't researched arctic world colonisation but had a race of arctic penguins in your realm.

You reasearch arctic colonisation

You see a fresh new world, ripe for the taking, but oh. you can't build a space station in a sector. no worries, force move the penguins to the central hub of the empire, colony ship them up and send them on their way.

But alas, you must take over the sector, pay influence, move the penguins, pay influence then colonise.

This seems odd.

Secondly, the sector politburo thing falls down because they won't forcibly resettle people - they can't, they don't spend influence.

 

[eddyill]

If, for example, you hadn't researched arctic world colonisation but had a race of arctic penguins in your realm.

You reasearch arctic colonisation

You see a fresh new world, ripe for the taking, but oh. you can't build a space station in a sector. no worries, force move the penguins to the central hub of the empire, colony ship them up and send them on their way.

But alas, you must take over the sector, pay influence, move the penguins, pay influence then colonise.

This seems odd.

Secondly, the sector politburo thing falls down because they won't forcibly resettle people - they can't, they don't spend influence.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I thought that you still controlled ship production in sectors so you should be able to build colony ships.

 

[puggle999]

I'm not 100% sure on this but I thought that you still controlled ship production in sectors so you should be able to build colony ships.

I don't think you could build a Space Station.

Even still though

 

[Hopejoy]

Either Space Stalin orders the local Politburo chief (tool) to round up the necessary people or Space Stalin sends Space Beria to do the rounding up, bypassing said tool entirely. After all, what's the tool going to do? Object? I hope he's ready to revolt (interesting option, actually. +% revolt risk?) or wants to enjoy a short retirement in the Space Lubyanka...

Pretty much this. There is a pretty big difference between a Count or Duke and a governor of a nations sub-districts. If the sectors were vassals it would be a different story. If they are considered part of your government though it would seem weird if the central head couldn't overrule them on some basis. Otherwise they are basically a tributary state or vassals.