micromanaging the research and other thoughts

[unmerged(3434)]

Hi, I made it through a 1st game of HOI
and i believe there are some things that I don't really like:

1st: of all the research tree is too complex and with no reason.
for example to get a new type of submarine you have to research
the distinct parts and then go for the big thing.
wouldn't have been simplier to have less research items? or
was the developer afraid to seem copying CIV?
I spend too much time researching little bits of technology with no
real improvement or change...

2nd: i usually have the game show a msgbox everytime
a unit completes his orders, but i disabled it for the units of
other nations, my allies included (when you have a big alliance
you have to...) but in this way i loose track of the
"ALLIES' UNITS UNDER MY CONTROL" , maybe on the other side of the planet.

shouldn't be there a set of options for controlled units separated
from my units and allies units?(Or is it there and i didn't notice it?)


3rd:this is a question? how does VICHY event triggers?
i occupied France in 1937 (...) but i didn't never got the
event, i had to annex after 2 years of occupation

BTW i really like this game, even if it is harder to master...
too many things to follow

 

[SideshowBob]

Vichy should trigger, if Germany owns Paris and France still owns Vichy.

You didn't say who you were playing? but either you were the Italians or some other Axis country, or you or an ally took the Vichy province before Paris.

Oh and it takes upto 3 days to trigger, so it's also possible that you took Vichy really quickly after taking Paris.

 

[Darkrenown]

I like the tech tree the way it is, haven't seen any other complaints about it either so I think you're stuck with it

 

[unmerged(11763)]

During my first game, I disliked the tech tree. Subsequently, I have gotten accustomed to it and like the flexibility it gives. The problem though is that it does require too much "stop and go" micromanagement. It is definitely a pain to have to pause every time anything is discovered and go find what you discovered and what should then be next. The game desperately needs to allow a player to set goals so that subsequent techs are automatically queued.

 

[unmerged(11763)]

Originally posted by Darkrenown
I like the tech tree the way it is, haven't seen any other complaints about it either so I think you're stuck with it

While it was likely not your intent, this post could be taken as belittling. Disagreements are fine but I would hope that we would all try to choose our words carefully to ensure that we maintain a civil community. Thanks.

 

[pdrowe]

I also like the complexity of the tech tree. It mirrors the decisions I imagine have to be regularly made by leaders as they priorize and adjust research goals on a continuing basis.

 

[unmerged(7417)]

1st: of all the research tree is too complex and with no reason.
for example to get a new type of submarine you have to research
the distinct parts and then go for the big thing.
wouldn't have been simplier to have less research items? or
was the developer afraid to seem copying CIV?
I spend too much time researching little bits of technology with no
real improvement or change...

I totally disagree, and I think the Tech tree is excellent the Way it is ...

 

[unmerged(430)]

Originally posted by jchastain
The game desperately needs to allow a player to set goals so that subsequent techs are automatically queued.

Yes. Or alternatively, you could borrow an idea from Imperialism 2 where you could set a target tech, and the requirement techs would show up highlighted -- in e.g. the tech short list in the upper right hand corner, which I've found totally useless so far. This would at least eliminate the "what did I need for that 80 mm+ tank gun again?" searches; it would also make it easy to divert from the chosen path for a short while, should you absolutely need some other invention all of a sudden.

 

[unmerged(1095)]

Originally posted by jchastain
While it was likely not your intent, this post could be taken as belittling. Disagreements are fine but I would hope that we would all try to choose our words carefully to ensure that we maintain a civil community. Thanks.

No - it would not have been his intent. Darkrenown is Scottish and Scottish people tend to be very direct

I applaud your sentiments though

 

[unmerged(12530)]

Originally posted by jchastain
During my first game, I disliked the tech tree. Subsequently, I have gotten accustomed to it and like the flexibility it gives. The problem though is that it does require too much "stop and go" micromanagement. It is definitely a pain to have to pause every time anything is discovered and go find what you discovered and what should then be next. The game desperately needs to allow a player to set goals so that subsequent techs are automatically queued.

You probably could change the game design to do that fairly easily. Instead of you figuring out what you need to develop, say, improved aircraft carriers, you simply click on "improved aircraft carriers" and the computer would figure out what you need to research to get there.

The problem with that, of course, is prioritization; you may want improved torpedo planes and naval bombers to go on your improved aircraft carrier, so you click on those, too. But if that's more research than you've got IC's allocated for, you're going to have to come in and clean up the mess. So I'm not sure it would really reduce any of the micromanagement involved in research.

Actually, the research is the one area of the game which I think is absolutely outstanding, and that works on a true grand strategic level. I love playing as the United States in the 1936 scenario, for example, because it starts out pretty far back of the pack of the major combatants in research. And you have to prioritize: you're probably going to need to improve your fleet first, but does that include submarines, too? You also need to beef up your air force. Land units can wait, but if you wait too long, you run into problems; you probably should get started on some of the theoretical stuff, at least, many of which take the better part of a year.

That's the way a grand strategic game should work. Then, of course, the war starts, and things go to hell in a hurry: you find that the better carriers still carry only one plane, not two as you were told, but that doesn't really matter because the improved torpedo planes and bombers don't have anything to bomb since naval combat doesn't really work, and the land warfare stuff was a waste because you probably could've just as easily conquered Europe with cavalry as with medium tanks....

As far as I'm concerned, on the list of things that need to be fixed in this game, research is at the bottom of page twelve.

RB

 

[Darkrenown]

Originally posted by jchastain
While it was likely not your intent, this post could be taken as belittling. Disagreements are fine but I would hope that we would all try to choose our words carefully to ensure that we maintain a civil community. Thanks.

Not my intent at all, I hoped the would show I sympathised with him not liking part of the game which was unlikely to be changed.

 

[Xipe]

I think the tree is quite ok, it does become a bit of a problem when you start raking in 800 or so IC:s... then you get a new discovery every few days which kind of interferes with whatever you are doing (or if you decide to just leave it be you'll end up with 132 IC in research with 500 unallocated ).

I.e. - in my opinion it's slow and nice in the beginning, but a bit too fast when your military conquest is going well.

This is probably not the time, maybe not even the place, but I would have liked the production and the research to be separated - what gave germany its great minds and innovability was a completely different beast from its _actual_ industrial output (but that output derived from the same source).

Though, for an abstraction I guess I have to say it works rather well.

 

[unmerged(12214)]

Arby got it right when he said:

Actually, the research is the one area of the game which I think is absolutely outstanding, and that works on a true grand strategic level.

It's funny because I bought this game when I saw it had a scenario editor. I don't want to go 16-bit color so I don't use the editor, but the tech tree has me mesmerized

I love playing as the United States in the 1936 scenario, for example, because it starts out pretty far back of the pack of the major combatants in research. And you have to prioritize: you're probably going to need to improve your fleet first, but does that include submarines, too?

Three of my first four games were as US. I quickly found that building new naval units wasn't of much use except for subs and transports. The US has sufficient other ships to fight and win against any AI navy. Subs are ideal for blasting enemy convoys. You just have to find where they path.

You also need to beef up your air force. Land units can wait, but if you wait too long, you run into problems; you probably should get started on some of the theoretical stuff, at least, many of which take the better part of a year.

I try to do the theoretical and doctrine areas first since I usually have the IC available before 1939-40. In my last game, though, I discovered that I'd skipped one key area and suddenly I coudn't build medium tanks. My armored divisions were taking on Panzers with pre-war models! (the 20mm popguns, or else the armored cars with cardboard tubes for guns) The missing category was, of course, one of the obtuse areas of infantry research (C3I I think).

Then, of course, the war starts, and things go to hell in a hurry: you find that the better carriers still carry only one plane, not two as you were told, but that doesn't really matter because the improved torpedo planes and bombers don't have anything to bomb since naval combat doesn't really work, and the land warfare stuff was a waste because you probably could've just as easily conquered Europe with cavalry as with medium tanks....

Point made, but I've gotten naval combat to work. And I'd like to see someone try to invade Germany with cavalry divisions in my last game. They threw almost 20 divisions at my US army in Belgian (half of them armored), and it was very touch-and-go for a bit. Once I conquered all of Germany and invaded Russia I found they still had significant forces deep inside Russia, too.

As far as I'm concerned, on the list of things that need to be fixed in this game, research is at the bottom of page twelve.

AI first. AI second. AI third. Then, whatever

T.

 

[unmerged(952)]

I agree with most people here. Please don't "fix" research.

I've got plenty of problems with the game, but the tech tree is what keeps me playing until those other problems are fixed.

 

[juv95hrn]

Originally posted by glen
I agree with most people here. Please don't "fix" research.

I've got plenty of problems with the game, but the tech tree is what keeps me playing until those other problems are fixed.

I agree totally! Its on page 12 and the first 11 pages should be fixed first.

 

[unmerged(1584)]

I like the complexity of the tech tree too. My only complaint is that I can't see the tree! It's hard to tell which branch leads where. In some cases, if you research x, that closes off branch y. I wish they'd copied the Civ 3 tech tree's graphical layout.

 

[unmerged(12214)]

Originally posted by Houdini
I like the complexity of the tech tree too. My only complaint is that I can't see the tree! It's hard to tell which branch leads where. In some cases, if you research x, that closes off branch y. I wish they'd copied the Civ 3 tech tree's graphical layout.

I've been working on my own tech tree graphic, using the tech files as a guide, but it's slow going. I'm really surprised someone else hasn't already done one yet.

The one research branch that closes off something else is in armor. It was explained to me that you're making a design decision -- pass up 20mm tanks to build 50mm, for example, but once you build 50's you can't build the others until you move up to medium tanks, where it's another design decision. That's fine with me, now that I know how it works.

What befuddles me usually is things like Marines, requiring Decimetric Radar to build Marines. Or now, I'm playing China and I don't have transports to start the game. I can't find 'em anywhere in the Naval Tech tree. I have a bad feeling (you might even say a "sinking" feeling) that my poverty-stricken Chinese aren't going to be able to afford to invade the Japanese home islands I liked the suggestion someone else made about being able to choose goals and have the tree tell you what you need to do to get there.

T.