Micro management is astronomical now

[~Robbie]

you do realize that delegation to the sector AI worked alot better pre le guin, right? Lay down the groundwork of saying which level 1 buildings should be built on all tiles, then hand off the planet to AI with orders not to redevelop. Viola. AI handles upgrades and all the tedious micro.. Or rather that was how it was. Now we are forced to handle that tedious stuff we could let the AI deal with previously.

This is what I don't understand about people praising the new system.

You have way more micro, that's a fact. But you do all the micro for no benefit compared to the old system, where you could succeed without it. It's basically saying that you like to do ten times as much work for no extra reward and I just don't get it. And if you don't do the extra work under the new system, you cannot succeed.

 

[AlanC9]

Remember, a lot of us hated having to lay out all the buildings before handing off to the sector AI, or hated having to use the sector AI at all.

 

[monkeypunch87]

This is what I don't understand about people praising the new system.

You have way more micro, that's a fact. But you do all the micro for no benefit compared to the old system, where you could succeed without it. It's basically saying that you like to do ten times as much work for no extra reward and I just don't get it. And if you don't do the extra work under the new system, you cannot succeed.

Since I almost never actively seek war on my own, 2.2 enhanced my favorite part of Stellaris.

 

[SpectralShade]

Since I almost never actively seek war on my own, 2.2 enhanced my favorite part of Stellaris.

considering the AI is unable to wage war in the state it currently is, I take it you just want a lobotomized AI and all is good?

 

[monkeypunch87]

considering the AI is unable to wage war in the state it currently is, I take it you just want a lobotomized AI and all is good?

You are talking about bugs, I talk about the new features. I don't like the status quo of Stellaris in regards of the AI and I never stated it. I'm just happy that I have to do more work to get a good economy.

 

[SpectralShade]

You are talking about bugs, I talk about the new features. I don't like the status quo of Stellaris in regards of the AI and I never stated it. I'm just happy that I have to do more work to get a good economy.

No, bugs is when the code works different than the design.

Stellaris AI is working as designed at the moment, unfortunately, and that is the biggest problem. That Le Guin was launched without a proper AI design.

 

[methegrate]

Wasn't the point of the new system to reduce micro? Now it is just utterly insane. Constantly having to build new jobs, housing, and 20 other things each time every planet gets a new pop has become the new grind. Look, im not being "Disrespectful" or "Toxic" but the game has never been more broken, slow, locked down and shackled than it is now. The AI is now totally broken and I can't even fathom trying multiplayer with how tedious managing planets and lag have become. I just dont see the point anymore. My last dozen games post 2.0 have all been "sit around, be stronger than all the AI, build things, wait to build more things, wait for things to happen (awakened empires, crisis) when they do happen oh they are broken, well that was a good 12 hours spent!" I have not seen ONE awakend empire do ANYTHING post 2.0... I'm not trying to bag on the devs so please don't come along and delete this but I have to say the game's playability and fun has taken a nosedive. It feels like they took the chain and wheels off a bicycle and added 2 new bells and a whistle. No matter how many streamers, ribbons, or bells you keep adding the bike is not going to do much when you took it's wheels.

Personally I like the amount of planet engagement. I guess this is one man's micro is another man's gameplay, but to me it actually gives something to do other than declare war on the AI. That said, I can't imagine trying to play Stellaris multiplayer at all given the amount of time in a single game. So maybe that's different.

I feel like one of the big issues here is that maybe the pacing is off. I agree that the game often feels slow and tedious, but imo that's more because everything seems to take FOREVER. Ships crawl across the screen. Pops grow at an absolutely glacial pace. Construction ticks slowly up, and in the early game you wait endlessly for your +18 mineral income to add up to the 400 you need for a new building.

The other thing I can't imagine is playing Stellaris on anything but the fastest setting, because even that feels slow.

So that's probably the biggest change I'd make, is I'd at least double the base speed of the entire game.

After that, I agree that the AI has gotten astonishingly passive. I've rolled several games since 2.2 dropped and don't think I've had a single computer player declare war on me ever. Even when I start next to fanatic purifiers and driven assimilators, they just kind of sit there until I decide to launch a war myself. (Heck, for some reason the assimilators usually have a positive opinion of my egalitarian xenophiles, and their pops tend to hate me after I liberate them. So that's weird too...)

 

[Martydi]

Personally I like the amount of planet engagement. I guess this is one man's micro is another man's gameplay, but to me it actually gives something to do other than declare war on the AI. That said, I can't imagine trying to play Stellaris multiplayer at all given the amount of time in a single game. So maybe that's different.

I feel like one of the big issues here is that maybe the pacing is off. I agree that the game often feels slow and tedious, but imo that's more because everything seems to take FOREVER. Ships crawl across the screen. Pops grow at an absolutely glacial pace. Construction ticks slowly up, and in the early game you wait endlessly for your +18 mineral income to add up to the 400 you need for a new building.

The other thing I can't imagine is playing Stellaris on anything but the fastest setting, because even that feels slow.

So that's probably the biggest change I'd make, is I'd at least double the base speed of the entire game.

After that, I agree that the AI has gotten astonishingly passive. I've rolled several games since 2.2 dropped and don't think I've had a single computer player declare war on me ever. Even when I start next to fanatic purifiers and driven assimilators, they just kind of sit there until I decide to launch a war myself. (Heck, for some reason the assimilators usually have a positive opinion of my egalitarian xenophiles, and their pops tend to hate me after I liberate them. So that's weird too...)

Pop growth is slow? Boy oh boy try out the hive minds. I have to deal with constant overpopulation and excess drones.

 

[Merry76]

After that, I agree that the AI has gotten astonishingly passive. I've rolled several games since 2.2 dropped and don't think I've had a single computer player declare war on me ever. Even when I start next to fanatic purifiers and driven assimilators, they just kind of sit there until I decide to launch a war myself. (Heck, for some reason the assimilators usually have a positive opinion of my egalitarian xenophiles, and their pops tend to hate me after I liberate them. So that's weird too...)

In my run as fanatic purifiers, the AI declared War, but then did nothing. So I attacked and purified them which was surprisingly easy because it couldnt figure out how to wage war (it was equivalent strenght with one ally, I still only lost one fleet of the two I had. And that was because I overreached and attacked the most fortified system head on). Turns out half their fleet was parked somewhere, possibly looking for pirates. Surely the way to go when you have purifiers knocking because you declared war on them...

In my other run as xenophile megacorp the devouring swarm next door scowled a lot, but never attacked. They could have torn me a new one but where too passive and waited until I could overpower them because of my stronger economy (really easy with a proper managed megacorp). I thought it was the strategic bastions i placed (early game bases are pretty good), but it turns out they are a bit lobotomized atm-

So war does get declared on you, but only if the AI really hates you or thinks of you as pretty pathetic and an easy win. Or maybe even both.

 

[methegrate]

In my run as fanatic purifiers, the AI declared War, but then did nothing. So I attacked and purified them which was surprisingly easy because it couldnt figure out how to wage war (it was equivalent strenght with one ally, I still only lost one fleet of the two I had. And that was because I overreached and attacked the most fortified system head on). Turns out half their fleet was parked somewhere, possibly looking for pirates. Surely the way to go when you have purifiers knocking because you declared war on them...

In my other run as xenophile megacorp the devouring swarm next door scowled a lot, but never attacked. They could have torn me a new one but where too passive and waited until I could overpower them because of my stronger economy (really easy with a proper managed megacorp). I thought it was the strategic bastions i placed (early game bases are pretty good), but it turns out they are a bit lobotomized atm-

So war does get declared on you, but only if the AI really hates you or thinks of you as pretty pathetic and an easy win. Or maybe even both.

Yeah... That's the other thing I've seen. The AI doesn't seem to know how to operate this economy, and seems to have forgotten how to upgrade its ships. I'll constantly see empires rated as more powerful than mine, even "Overpowering" sometimes, but their stations will have Class I shields and armor and nuclear missiles.

I mentioned in another thread that I've been annoyed because the AI also seems to have gotten a huge bump to its disengagement chance. In otherwise evenly matched fights, let's say all corvettes vs. corvettes, I'll take ordinary losses while almost all of the AI's ships jump to safety. But that's the only real advantage it seems to have anymore.

 

[Janx14]

This is what I don't understand about people praising the new system.

You have way more micro, that's a fact. But you do all the micro for no benefit compared to the old system, where you could succeed without it. It's basically saying that you like to do ten times as much work for no extra reward and I just don't get it. And if you don't do the extra work under the new system, you cannot succeed.

Having to actually play the game and have my actions feel meaningful is great.

Before I'd just wrap my empire in one big sector other than my homeworld, let the game play itself.

 

[Masoz]

Microing the economy early isn't too bad when you get the hang of it, and planet management actually feels meaningful. I feel like they succeeded in their goal of each planet having a distinct personality.

...But the population system kind of falls apart once the midgame boom hits. Instead of pre-2.2 where you had to click UPGRADE, UPGRADE, UPGRADE... now it's RESETTLE, RESETTLE, RESETTLE... and unlike the former, it never ends! Nevermind the mystifying bug of slaves somehow preventing non-enslaved worker pops from promoting, which is a pretty big reason to not use slavery.

I shouldn't be so heavily micromanaging my pops once I've laid the foundation for my empire.

 

[monkeypunch87]

I've never resettled before. So tell me, why?

 

[Paul93]

The game is surely funnier and more interesting now than before. It is far from perfect, I know, but I would like to remind to some people that in the pre-2.2 era there were no economy whatsoever (apart from stacking mindlessy enormous amounts of minerals and energy), no society and related problems (no overpopulation and no problem caused by mass immigration) and basically nothing to do between a war and another. Moreover, not even war was (and is) that fine strategic thing... finally, this patch offers an enormous amount of untapped potential to modders.

This patch must be balanced and refined, but was really needed. I do not usually defend PDS, but in this case I must admit to be a bit grateful for this total rework...

 

[Masoz]

I've never resettled before. So tell me, why?

Eventually your smaller worlds will be fully developed. For instance, you have one tiny world 9 mining districts that's relatively stable, and maybe a has few refineries, but that's it. Rather than keep building it it up and have increasing issues with amenities and housing, increasing your empire sprawl with inefficient level 1 buildings, and potentially losing the "Mining World" modifier to mineral production, it's often much better to just relocate the extra pops to your fat, efficient core worlds.

 

[AlanC9]

Or just go Egalitarian/UA and let the pops sit where they are. Hell, by that point in the game you can probably just ignore such a planet altogether, which I'll bet is monkeypunch87's approach.

 

[~Robbie]

Having to actually play the game and have my actions feel meaningful is great.

Before I'd just wrap my empire in one big sector other than my homeworld, let the game play itself.

Actions that amount to nothing more than needless tedium do not feel meaningful to me.

What does it add to the experience beyond more clicks? It's not like it has any interesting decision making, it is strictly a requirement to click more in order to succeed.

 

[methegrate]

Actions that amount to nothing more than needless tedium do not feel meaningful to me.

What does it add to the experience beyond more clicks? It's not like it has any interesting decision making, it is strictly a requirement to click more in order to succeed.

Personally, I'd disagree entirely. I feel like the new economy has many interesting decisions to make.

Food and energy are, as before, relatively uninteresting. You hit your numbers then move on. Minerals, however, lead to multiple forks. Minerals have four possible uses: Construction, Consumer Goods, Alloys and Refineries. Consumer Goods, then, has another fork into Research and Amenities. Balancing this decision tree can be tricky, especially given how few building slots each planet actually has.

Planning your empire's needs takes some thought, and you can't fix it quickly if you bork the whole thing up.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to expand this decision tree. I'd like it if food and energy went someplace else. I'd also like it if there was a good reason to maximize Consumer Goods the way there is with Alloys, Research and Refineries. (Basically, there should be a reason why you want infinite of the end of each branch of the tree.) Finally, I would make Refineries much more expensive. (Strategic resources should be rare.)

But, and this is entirely my experience, I feel like the new economy has lots of decisions to make. Between planning buildings and limited districts, creating a scheme for your planets and figuring out which end-of-tree resources you want to maximize, it's been much more fun for me than the dry pop and drop of the tile system.

 

[The Boz]

> decision
> amenities
Amenities are a problem only in the first few decades, and then only if you are playing a -amenities race, because you have very few options of obtaining them. After that, all my planets are swimming in them.

 

[Merry76]

> decision
> amenities
Amenities are a problem only in the first few decades, and then only if you are playing a -amenities race, because you have very few options of obtaining them. After that, all my planets are swimming in them.

My experience exactly. While its interesting at first to deceide when to upgrade which planet in what way (do I need ameneties now, or can I stave it off for another 2 years) it is interesting, but it turns to work pretty quickly when you own and manage a spiral arm of the galaxy. Especially if you are trying to get your economy to run at peak performance. If you cant let go of your OCD long enough to think "meh, I got enough stuff even with unoptimized eco" this is really like working instead of playing.

In the end, it really depends on how you play. It has been mentioned several times in this thread (and I think in others too) that you can get it to be enjoyable: let go of your perfectionism and just bother with the resettlements every few years.

But keep in mind that not everyone likes to play that way, and some may even abhor to play that way. And pausing the game every month to ship people around with the REALLY BAD resettle dialogue isnt fun. Especially if you realize you are doing a one-banana job in a game:
look for the planet with unemployment (because the alerts dont tell you)
Klick it
Check if you wanted to develop it further or you want to resettle the pops
Klick resettle
Search in the ENTIRELY RANDOM pulldown list for the planet you want to send them to
Search for the unemployed pop
Send it off
Go to the planet you sent it to to develop it further if you where blocked before because it did not have to slot freed (which is the worst part of it all)

Alternatively (and this is how i play): Overdevelop the planets you want to expand, so there are free living spaces and a few jobs (that you do not even attempt to fill, say generator jobs on a research planet). You can now search for planets with an overabundance of living space and jobs, and send your pops there. Now your techplanet will say it has a building spot free whenever one gets unlocked, you build a research plant on it asap. The jobs will get freed again, because the technicians (workers) migrate to being researchers. Now you only have to remind yourself not to send too many new workers to the research planet... ARGH its a mess.

Also, do yourself a favor and suffix the planets with what you intend it to. Something like " -M" for mining or something. The "Mining planet" does help, but only shows up after the planet has evolved enough (size 10 and capital) and fulfills the requirement for a mining planet. if you bork it and turn it rural because you are short on food for a few years that hint gets lost. A suffix doesnt, and is your clear intent to make the planet a mining planet in the end...