Hi all,
I want to put out an announcement, if not quite a call to arms, for a Mesoamerica/Andes partial conversion mod.
I'm a long-time modder of strategy games (I've gone by "hangman" in the past). I have wanted to develop a broad-scoped M&A mod pretty much since I started modding a decade ago. I haven't played Imperator:Rome a ton, but while playing, I was shocked by how well the I:R base game would support an M&A mod, so after a long lull, I might get back in the modding scene. I want to post my thoughts so you guys can have an idea of what I'm thinking.
Sources:
RFC Mesoamerica and Andes: An abortive attempt I made at an M&A mod for Civilization 4. Permanently shelved because I didn't quite have the skills to debug it all, but still contains lots of ideas and art.
Rise and Fall of Andean Civilization: A finished mod for Civilization 5 I made with another modder, covering the Late Intermediate Period in the Andes.
Mesoamerica Universalis: An extremely thorough EU4 mod covering Mesoamerica from 1428 onward. Unless otherwise stated, I'm referring to v0.7 here, which is an unofficially released alpha, but contains gigantic map, art, and religion overhauls that will be important.
MEIOU & Taxes: The EU4 mod everyone should have. I worked on another abortive attempt to get a realistic Andes region, but modding EU4 maps proved extremely time-consuming, and M&T uses a different map set from the base game, which ate up even more time when I tried to port the base mods. Nothing released, but I do have a nice collection of research from this.
Mesoamerican Hibernia: An I:R mod with lots of Mayan art and flavor.
One of the hard things about developing RFAC was that CIv5 is a Civilization game. Civilization can only offer a very simplified view of geopolitical complexities. The central Andes of the LIP were anything but simple though, with at least 150 distinct ethnicities, and many more polities. The conflict between the complexity I envisioned and the simplicity of the Civ5 engine made RFAC feel a little sparse. The map was also probably too large, but the Andes are characterized by wild variations in terrain and population density, so to some extent this was unavoidable.
In RFC M&A, I tried to go for a larger scope, spanning the entire region from Mexico to the south central Andes, from about 1000BC to 1650. Rise and Fall mechanics are a core part of some of the best Civ4 mods, and have not yet (even with Civ6's expansion) been replicated in a Civ game since then.
Why An Imperator:Rome Mod?
I see a lot of criticisms of I:R in various forums, which... fair. The game is still pretty bland past a certain point, and could certainly use some UI rethinks. However, most of the mechanics we need for a good M&A mod are just there already. I cannot understate how important that is to a successful mod. The conversion mods I've worked on in the past usually got bogged down with tasks that just didn't matter all that much. So, here are the reasons why I think an M&A mod is ideal for I:R rather than EU4, and possibly the other Paradox Games (I haven't played them, so I can't say for sure).
Conversion mods are an enormous undertaking. Like, it's almost impossible to predict how to see them through because they are so enormous. However, I've learned some lessons over the years about what kinds of things should be modded, what shouldn't, what eats up time, what's worth it anyway, etc.
I want to put out an announcement, if not quite a call to arms, for a Mesoamerica/Andes partial conversion mod.
I'm a long-time modder of strategy games (I've gone by "hangman" in the past). I have wanted to develop a broad-scoped M&A mod pretty much since I started modding a decade ago. I haven't played Imperator:Rome a ton, but while playing, I was shocked by how well the I:R base game would support an M&A mod, so after a long lull, I might get back in the modding scene. I want to post my thoughts so you guys can have an idea of what I'm thinking.
Sources:
RFC Mesoamerica and Andes: An abortive attempt I made at an M&A mod for Civilization 4. Permanently shelved because I didn't quite have the skills to debug it all, but still contains lots of ideas and art.
Rise and Fall of Andean Civilization: A finished mod for Civilization 5 I made with another modder, covering the Late Intermediate Period in the Andes.
Mesoamerica Universalis: An extremely thorough EU4 mod covering Mesoamerica from 1428 onward. Unless otherwise stated, I'm referring to v0.7 here, which is an unofficially released alpha, but contains gigantic map, art, and religion overhauls that will be important.
MEIOU & Taxes: The EU4 mod everyone should have. I worked on another abortive attempt to get a realistic Andes region, but modding EU4 maps proved extremely time-consuming, and M&T uses a different map set from the base game, which ate up even more time when I tried to port the base mods. Nothing released, but I do have a nice collection of research from this.
Mesoamerican Hibernia: An I:R mod with lots of Mayan art and flavor.
One of the hard things about developing RFAC was that CIv5 is a Civilization game. Civilization can only offer a very simplified view of geopolitical complexities. The central Andes of the LIP were anything but simple though, with at least 150 distinct ethnicities, and many more polities. The conflict between the complexity I envisioned and the simplicity of the Civ5 engine made RFAC feel a little sparse. The map was also probably too large, but the Andes are characterized by wild variations in terrain and population density, so to some extent this was unavoidable.
In RFC M&A, I tried to go for a larger scope, spanning the entire region from Mexico to the south central Andes, from about 1000BC to 1650. Rise and Fall mechanics are a core part of some of the best Civ4 mods, and have not yet (even with Civ6's expansion) been replicated in a Civ game since then.
Why An Imperator:Rome Mod?
I see a lot of criticisms of I:R in various forums, which... fair. The game is still pretty bland past a certain point, and could certainly use some UI rethinks. However, most of the mechanics we need for a good M&A mod are just there already. I cannot understate how important that is to a successful mod. The conversion mods I've worked on in the past usually got bogged down with tasks that just didn't matter all that much. So, here are the reasons why I think an M&A mod is ideal for I:R rather than EU4, and possibly the other Paradox Games (I haven't played them, so I can't say for sure).
- A high-quality physical map editor. Neither Civ4 nor EU4 have good map editors, so I ended up spending an order of magnitude more time trying to get the base maps to look right. Compare with Civ5, which has one of the best map editors I've seen, where it took maybe a day to crank out a good map. I:R has some extra complexities, since Civ games are tile based (which simplifies things a lot), but other than the height map and visibility map, most aspects can be edited easily.
- Base mechanics for polytheistic religion. I feel like EU4 never quite got polytheist religions right because the basic model of religion was primarily based on Western religions. The temple and omen systems are where I:R can really shine with an M&A mod.
- Religious and ethnic minorities: Religious and ethnic minorities really should be in more strategy games. The base Civ games touch on this a little, but only in the most superficial of ways, although some Civ mods add some much-needed mechanics. here. EU4 M&T probably had the best religious minority mechanics until I:R, and they are mostly the same. M&T lacked ethnic minority mechanics though.
- The pop system: Goes a long way towards streamlining the M&T 2.5 economic system, and smooths out the rough spots with minorities.
- Trade goods: Trade in I:R could use some work, but the basic idea for trade goods feels like a mix of a Civ game and Rise of Nations. I think this makes for a far more flavorful experience than EU4's trade goods. Now if the devs can make long-distance trade networks a thing...
- End-game motivation: I think I:R is far more focused on maintaining large empires than EU4 was. With EU4, as soon as you hit exponential growth, you've basically won the game. Why keep playing? Mesoamerican and Andean history are characterized by periodic collapses due to political instability and climate change, so it's especially important for the M&A region not to make it a paint-by-number game. The Spanish invasions in particular are one of the most fun aspects of M&A regional mods, your goal in RFAC is less to win than to lose gracefully.
Conversion mods are an enormous undertaking. Like, it's almost impossible to predict how to see them through because they are so enormous. However, I've learned some lessons over the years about what kinds of things should be modded, what shouldn't, what eats up time, what's worth it anyway, etc.
Map Systems (Necessary)
- The height map must come first. Trying to mod without the map systems ready to go is like driving blindfolded. In I:R, the height map forms the base of most map systems, so it's a logical place to start. The surround_map also gets rolled in here.
- The physical maps should come second. Maybe it's just me, but an ugly or obviously inacurate physical map is a huge turnoff. Getting the non-height aspects of the physical map right is also very helpful when doing the province map. Lakes can be modded here as well, even though they are technically objects.
- A first pass at the province map must come here. Modding the province map is necessary, but very painful! The first province map will probably set the shape of everything for a long time, so you really want to do this right the first time. Splitting provinces is easy, so multiple passes later is fine, but completely redoing a province map is a giant time waster, and it will suck the whole way through.
- Object placement. Cities, harbors, etc.
Cultures (Necessary)
I think cultures are the next logical thing to mod. Although the tag system requires an overhaul after changing the maps, dealing with tags is one of the most complex parts of Paradox mods. However, it's possible to change some of the simpler systems first so it's not as intractable later. Culture is relatively straightforward, and although I'm not familiar with how the pop system changes this, culture was only tied to provinces in EU4, so I imagine they will be easy here too.
Religions (Necessary)
Religion will probably be very similar to culture, with the added complexity of deities and omens and the demands they bring. Although I generally advocate against art mods, I think art mods for deities is reasonable here, and Mesoamerica Universalis already has a nice corpus of artwork we can borrow for at least part of Mesoamerica.
Tags (Necessary)
One of the core systems of the game. Modding tags is complex, and the sheer number needed makes it painful! However, no tag changes = no mod, so I think putting it after culture and religion is reasonable. There are some culture aspects (like languages for naming ships, characters, etc.) that are tied to tags, so it also makes sense to do it while cultural knowledge is still fresh.
Events and Decisions (Encouraged)
No such thing as too much flavor! Events and decisions are two of my weaker points as a modder, so ideas are always welcome.
Art (Generally Avoid)
Modding art is huge commitment for not a lot of payoff. I've done lots of art for Civ5 mods, but I advocate not even touching it until everything above is done. That said, I can see a few reasonable cases for artwork, especially if the art already exists in different mods (like RFC M&A, RFAC and Mesoamerica Universalis). In general, we should focus on the most visible art assets and avoid anything that won't actually be seen.
- Map objects: A few one-off objects won't take a ton of time for an experienced artist. Civ games also have wonders built in, and wonders are a popular mod in the Civ communities, so we can save some time there as well.
- City sets: I mean the mundane houses and other buildings that get placed with population, not the "important" buildings. There are lots of culturally unique city sets available for Civ4, and as before, buildings aren't hard to make for an artist. One caution is there is not much source material to make Andean-style city sets.
- Units: If there's a way to import unit art, there is a large corpus of M&A units available from Civ games (I've made some myself). Rigging the meshes to I:R animations will certainly be time-consuming though.
- Portraits: I would advocate only touching this if this mod is far along enough and we have an experienced and fast 2D artist. They seem time-consuming to me, but on the other hand, they are highly visible.
Base Mechanics (Avoid!)
While new base mechanics can add lots of flavor, I think they are best avoided for now. Altering base mechanics should be avoided at all costs, it inevitably creates a merge hell every time Paradox pushes an update.
Things I would like to see though:
- Multiple start dates. No need for long-term history like in EU4, but with a long arc, rise and fall mechanics can derail history badly enough to make some later scenarios impossible. I'll probably just work with the latest date for now, but interesting dates in the Americas might include:
- 1350 CE: Interesting all-around, Mexico and Andes thriving, setting the stage for Aztec, Purhepecha, Chimu and Inca civs. Some Maya areas are beginning to reorganize. Muisca region begins consolidating. Andean civilization spreading deep into Chile and Argentina.
- 1000 CE: Maya region has completely collapsed. Toltecs ascendant. Wari and Tiwanaku empires have collapsed, but the fragmented Andes are growing economically. Sican state at its peak. Massive Aymara migration into the Altiplano region fundamentally alters the cultural landscape. Early Muisca. Andean civilization spreading in Ecuador and Colombia.
- 550 CE: Civil war in Teotihuacan, which is past its peak. Tikal soon to be sacked, Moche kingdoms are declining, Wari and Tiwanaku are consolidating into empires. Central Maya region is otherwise at its peak. Cholula becomes an ascendant population center.
- 100 CE: Teuchitlan at its peak, Teotihuacan, Moche states and central Maya states ascendant. Highland Maya states collapse. City-states developing throughout Peru. Tiwanaku founded.
- 600 BCE: Chavin and highland Maya states are at their peak. Olmecs in decline.
- Rise mechanics. Each province would get an excess production score, based partially on climate, partially on other factors. Civilization would increase over time in empty regions with high enough excess production. Above some civilization threshold (multiplied by distance from other civilized provinces), clusters of city-states would pop up in the most civilized provinces, and get some short-term bonuses to help them spread out. Some citizens would also migrate away and establish more city-states.
- Fall mechanics. Rather than requiring total depopulation, if provinces fall below some civilization threshold, pops revert to tribesman and the province is lost. This should also intersect with the existing fall and revolt mechanics somehow. A core goal in stabilizing an empire will be to make sure that population flows inward from surrounding uncivilized areas and civilization spreads outwards. Should these flows reverse, expect decline and eventual collapse.
- Climate change. Climate changes were historically a huge driver of civilizational success in the Americas, with both major regions going through multiple boom and bust cycles before Europeans arrived.
UI (Avoid!)
Modding UI is a great way to spend a lot time on something that won't actually affect the game. I say leave it to Paradox since they're getting paid and we're not.
Last edited:
- 4
- 2
- 1
