Merging counties into dukedoms

[Bertouch]

I'm coming back into the game after taking an extended leave, and playing now with patch and DLC changes. One of the things that used to irk me about the original vanilla-flavored CK2 was that you as king couldn't merge counties into dukedoms, but your AI-based dukes could. Does that restriction still hold? Or is there now some way for your rulers to move counties into the dukedoms you hold? I admit, I don't see one, but there's no harm in asking. It's easy to overlook matters.

 

[jordarkelf]

There is the possibility to transfer vassals, which I think is what you mean. If a king has a count vassal he can transfer this count to any duke in the realm as their vassal, and as such "clean up" the map.

 

[Bertouch]

There is the possibility to transfer vassals, which I think is what you mean. If a king has a count vassal he can transfer this count to any duke in the realm as their vassal, and as such "clean up" the map.

I'm thinking more along the lines of starting up a one-county dukedom, then having my king add from his own county vassals to it.

 

[Sopot]

I'm thinking more along the lines of starting up a one-county dukedom, then having my king add from his own county vassals to it.

Why would your liege want to make you, as his vassal, more powerful?

 

[jordarkelf]

I'm thinking more along the lines of starting up a one-county dukedom, then having my king add from his own county vassals to it.

Why would he do that? That doesn't happen for the AI either.

If you declare yourself duke, you have an automatic de jure claim on all counties (likewise count on baronies). You can either enforce them, or wait for event 63000 to fire (vassal asks liege to transfer a vassal). The event is open for both players and AI.

 

[Bertouch]

Why would he do that? That doesn't happen for the AI either.

I remember dukes on several occasions adding new counties they waged war on and conquered to their duchies. These weren't counties already listed as being part of their duchies before, but they showed up as such when I looked at them, after they won. If I later took the title to that duchy from its ruler, the title would reflect the changes they made: what they added to it.

I'd swear I also read numerous threads here where duke-level rulers could simply move counties they owned outside their duchies, into them. But this was back in the game's early days.

 

[Sopot]

I remember dukes on several occasions adding new counties they waged war on and conquered to their duchies. These weren't counties already listed as being part of their duchies before, but they showed up as such when I looked at them, after they won. If I later took the title to that duchy from its ruler, the title would reflect the changes they made: what they added to it.

I'd swear I also read numerous threads here where duke-level rulers could simply move counties they owned outside their duchies, into them. But this was back in the game's early days.

There is no county drift into dutchy titles.

 

[jordarkelf]

I remember dukes on several occasions adding new counties they waged war on and conquered to their duchies. These weren't counties already listed as being part of their duchies before, but they showed up as such when I looked at them, after they won. If I later took the title to that duchy from its ruler, the title would reflect the changes they made: what they added to it.

I'd swear I also read numerous threads here where duke-level rulers could simply move counties they owned outside their duchies, into them. But this was back in the game's early days.

I think you're misremembering things. As Sopot mentions, there's no such thing as de jure drift on a county level.
What is of course possible is that either the duke conquers something for himself, or that the king decided to randomly give out a county title to an existing duke (if hitting their demesne limit, the AI will do this, but usually will create a new count first).
But I've never seen a county suddenly appear to be the de jure part of a new duchy.

 

[Bertouch]

But I've never seen a county suddenly appear to be the de jure part of a new duchy.

I may not have been clear. I didn't mean a new duchy. I meant an existing one. For example, a duke who has several counties within his existing duchy, and several counties that he rules that aren't a part of it. Then, he moves one of those counties, literally into the de jure duchy. If you follow me.

Now, I may be wrong. I don't deny this. But I'm pretty sure I remember this happening, and one of the complaints early on in the forums were that human players couldn't do this, while AI ones could.

 

[ziamatt]

I may not have been clear. I didn't mean a new duchy. I meant an existing one. For example, a duke who has several counties within his existing duchy, and several counties that he rules that aren't a part of it. Then, he moves one of those counties, literally into the de jure duchy. If you follow me.

Now, I may be wrong. I don't deny this. But I'm pretty sure I remember this happening, and one of the complaints early on in the forums were that human players couldn't do this, while AI ones could.

If this happened it was a bug. There is no way to change what counties make up a de jure duchy, and I'm fairly certain that there never was. If I'm wrong and it ever was a feature, it's not possible now for either players nor AI.

 

[Bertouch]

If this happened it was a bug. There is no way to change what counties make up a de jure duchy, and I'm fairly certain that there never was. If I'm wrong and it ever was a feature, it's not possible now for either players nor AI.

Fair enough. So that means the AI can't add any counties to a duchy, unless they've been transferred by the monarch, correct? So if a duke has a Duchy of Somethingville comprising counties A, B, and C, and rules as well county D outside his duchy, he can't add D to Somethingville?

Please excuse my sounding like an idiot, here. I know the rules have changed quite a bit, and I don't want to be sidelined by some development I missed. Thanks to all who have contributed to what may be a fairly trying thread.

 

[ziamatt]

Fair enough. So that means the AI can't add any counties to a duchy, unless they've been transferred by the monarch, correct? So if a duke has a Duchy of Somethingville comprising counties A, B, and C, and rules as well county D outside his duchy, he can't add D to Somethingville?

Please excuse my sounding like an idiot, here. I know the rules have changed quite a bit, and I don't want to be sidelined by some development I missed. Thanks to all who have contributed to what may be a fairly trying thread.

Correct, except that a title being transferred from a monarch can't be added either. If county A, B, and C make up the de jure Duchy of Somethingville those are the only counties that can ever make up the de jure Duchy of Somethingville short of editing the actual game files.

 

[Sopot]

Fair enough. So that means the AI can't add any counties to a duchy, unless they've been transferred by the monarch, correct? So if a duke has a Duchy of Somethingville comprising counties A, B, and C, and rules as well county D outside his duchy, he can't add D to Somethingville?

A duke can still attack another county and control it via claims war or have a county granted to him, it will never be a de jure part of his dutchy though.

 

[Bertouch]

An AI-controlled duke can add it de facto, though? While you can't add any de facto to those you as a king control?

 

[ziamatt]

An AI-controlled duke can add it de facto, though? While you can't add any de facto to those you as a king control?

Well all counties you gain control of are added to your realm de facto. I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

 

[Bertouch]

Well all counties you gain control of are added to your realm de facto. I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

And to be honest, I'm beginning to question my ability to articulate that point--not because of you, but because I've started doubting what I recalled from the early game, back when I played furiously. I'm going to halt now, give a dukedom to a kid, then a county or two, and see what happens. Will report back.

Thanks, again to all, and to you, ziamatt.

 

[Talq]

Its not an AI/player thing. Its a kingdom/duchy thing. If you have vassals they swear to your primary title unless one of the lower titles is its dejure liege. So count vassals outside of a duchies dejure area count as part of that duchy if a duke, but part of a kingdom (but not any duchy) if sworn to a king.

In any event, you seem to discussing how your direct vassals report to you. So far as the game is concerned, its irrelevant - they still report to you.

 

[Ratlegion]

There has been a lot of back and forth, and it is somewhat hard to follow, but I know what the TC is talking about. When it is said that the dejure duchy doesn't change, it seemingly appears to when you get a claim on a "duchy" and the counties of that duchy are all over the place. At that point, why aren't all of those territories considered dejure if you can claim full rights to separated territories that are obviously not a block of dejure land?

 

[Sopot]

There has been a lot of back and forth, and it is somewhat hard to follow, but I know what the TC is talking about. When it is said that the dejure duchy doesn't change, it seemingly appears to when you get a claim on a "duchy" and the counties of that duchy are all over the place. At that point, why aren't all of those territories considered dejure if you can claim full rights to separated territories that are obviously not a block of dejure land?

It's hard to explain, but it's not overly complicated.

The de jure dutchy does not change, even if you have managed to claim for all that dukes lands.

Example: We'll go with The duke of Apulia, in Sicily, and for examples sake, we'll say all he has is that one duke title, and he personally owns all three counties in apulia, that is all the lands he personally owns but he has control over the two counties that make salerno and the two counties that make capua, obviously, they are ruler by other counts.

So, you press your claim for the dutchy of apulia and you gain all of the lands listed above, and the counts become your vassals, you are de facto ruler of all of this. However, shortly after this, a muslim Jihad attacks you and takes it all away from you, you still retain your claim for the dutchy of Apulia but none of the lands.

We skip a generation and there has been a crusade for the whole of Sicily, and the king there is now an independant ruler and has assigned all of the dutchies of Sicily to individual dukes, you decide now is a good time to press your claim for Apulia and you win. This time, however, you only gain the three counties in Apulia and the title of duke of apulia.

You did not gain the lands you had previously controlled as you had no real claim on them, you were the de facto ruler, not de jure.