Merging Celtic with British?

[Homusubi]

I always feel like crying when I see this sort of thing... not the thread or GH's suggestion, but the Celtic culture group in general... THE CELTS NEVER REACHED THE BRITISH ISLES (and weren't Bretons either), THEY WERE A COMPLETELY SEPARATE CIVILISATION ON THE CONTINENT!

The culture of druids and so forth is correctly referred to as Brythonic (if it's in southern Britain or sometimes Brittany) or Gaelic (if it's in Scotland, Ireland or the Isle of Man). That's not to say that there is a big cultural divide along those lines - that's almost purely linguistic - it's just that those names are the correct terminology. If you are in desperate need of an overarching name, call it Gaelic, or possibly "Old British" or "Brytho-Gaelic" or something. Just please, don't call it Celtic. That's not to say that people in Ireland, Scotland, Wales etc. don't make the same mistake - they do, all the time, although some of them might well know better and deliberately call it Celtic for the tourists (although, to be fair to Irish people, they do tend to say "Gaels" instead of "Celts" when referring to the people).

OT: I'm not so sure. I disagree with putting Breton into the French culture group, but then again, I do think that the old French culture group was almost as silly as the current one and that Oil and non-Oil (several Occitan cultures, Arpitan, possibly Catalan) should be separate groups. As for Basque, I don't know much about the culture and whether there is a cultural split from the rest of Europe as big as the linguistic one. With Britain, the current setup is odd, but my initial response would be to do a Beyond the Pale-style Highland Gaelic vs. Lowland Anglo-Scottish split and keep the two culture groups separate. And yes, as previous posters have said, Highland vs. Lowland conflict existed. Many of the Scotland vs. England conflicts in the CK2 and EUIV timeframes featured English armies consisting mostly of Lowlanders.

 

[War_lord]

It's inaccurate to give it an overarching name anyway, what is commonly called "Gaelic" or "Celtic" is actually multiple different cultures with only cosmetic similarities that were all lumped together in the Victorian era because it was the fashion of the day to make sweeping declarations about ancient cultures to suit a nationalistic narrative.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

After reading but not posting in this thread for a few days now, I would be really interested in this circumstance of what nationalities and backgrounds the main posters are. I reckon OP is American with too much time to browse wikipedia without any real cultural referance. it also feels like the thread has been taken over by a lot of people with a good knowledge of local history from the areas in discussion with genuine cause for improvement. My own background is half cornish, half english who lives in england and has visited wales a lot, with a few good scottish friends. It would be good to get a rough idea where others are from because it looks like most the key posters in this topic are Irish and Scottish.

 

[Zerodv]

After reading but not posting in this thread for a few days now, I would be really interested in this circumstance of what nationalities and backgrounds the main posters are. I reckon OP is American with too much time to browse wikipedia without any real cultural referance. it also feels like the thread has been taken over by a lot of people with a good knowledge of local history from the areas in discussion with genuine cause for improvement. My own background is half cornish, half english who lives in england and has visited wales a lot, with a few good scottish friends. It would be good to get a rough idea where others are from because it looks like most the key posters in this topic are Irish and Scottish.

Sorry but actually people outside the UK would be able to judge better the historical situation rather than the local themselves that naturally tend to mix recent history with actual historical facts.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Sorry but actually people outside the UK would be able to judge better the historical situation rather than the local themselves that naturally tend to mix recent history with actual historical facts.

Not if they treat history properly, I think a some people judge recent history to be subjected to modern nationalism which can get confusing but modern nationalism is often built on centuries of reluctant cooperation. Local people also have a much better grasp of customs and cultures of their ancestors than an outsider would, its basically a trade off between better local knowledge and potential subjectivity or less real understanding but higher rate of objectivity. In my opinion its easier for someone with proper knowledge to be unbiased than someone who is unbiased to have the appropriate knowledge

 

[Daema]

I always feel like crying when I see this sort of thing... not the thread or GH's suggestion, but the Celtic culture group in general... THE CELTS NEVER REACHED THE BRITISH ISLES (and weren't Bretons either), THEY WERE A COMPLETELY SEPARATE CIVILISATION ON THE CONTINENT!

The culture of druids and so forth is correctly referred to as Brythonic (if it's in southern Britain or sometimes Brittany) or Gaelic (if it's in Scotland, Ireland or the Isle of Man). That's not to say that there is a big cultural divide along those lines - that's almost purely linguistic - it's just that those names are the correct terminology. If you are in desperate need of an overarching name, call it Gaelic, or possibly "Old British" or "Brytho-Gaelic" or something. Just please, don't call it Celtic. That's not to say that people in Ireland, Scotland, Wales etc. don't make the same mistake - they do, all the time, although some of them might well know better and deliberately call it Celtic for the tourists (although, to be fair to Irish people, they do tend to say "Gaels" instead of "Celts" when referring to the people).

Eh... I think you're being a bit pedantic. You could make a similar argument that the English+Scottish group shouldn't be called 'British', since they're Germanic cultures. The 'true British' being the Welsh, Bretons and Cornish.

The only issue with using 'Celtic' is that, by 1444, the Celtic cultures in Ireland and Britain had branched off and developed into Gaelic and Brittonic. If you're going to group those cultures together, then 'Celtic' is definitely appropriate. The only other term that would fit would be 'British'; those cultures originate in 'the British Isles', whereas English and Lowland Scottish don't.

It's not the name that matters, it's the relations between cultures that matters. Historically the English regarded the 'Celtic' cultures with hostility, and vice versa, and made repeated attempts to 'convert' their lands, so putting them in the same group is a terrible idea.

The issue is with the on-demand culture conversion mechanic; England should try to convert their lands, but it should have a tiny chance of success.

 

[melkor88]

I also hope it changes soon, they should be your Primary anyway, or at the least, all the cultures should become your primary when you form GB.

 

[MetaAdInfinitum]

I always feel like crying when I see this sort of thing... not the thread or GH's suggestion, but the Celtic culture group in general... THE CELTS NEVER REACHED THE BRITISH ISLES (and weren't Bretons either), THEY WERE A COMPLETELY SEPARATE CIVILISATION ON THE CONTINENT!

I don't know who you think the Celts were Homusubi, but the Britons and Gauls were very culturally similar and shared a common language. Caesar records Gaulish Druids going to the Isles in order to study with the order based in Ynys Mons. If you think that Celt as a label ought to be confined to the pre-migration early Iron workers in Austria, then I'm really not sure how to argue you here; Gauls, Celtiberians, Britons and Galataeans all dialects of a common language, a similar pantheon and artistic similarities.

It's inaccurate to give it an overarching name anyway, what is commonly called "Gaelic" or "Celtic" is actually multiple different cultures with only cosmetic similarities that were all lumped together in the Victorian era because it was the fashion of the day to make sweeping declarations about ancient cultures to suit a nationalistic narrative.

Now, Warlord; Gaelic refers to the language of the tribes of Ireland circa 500 BC to present. These tribes migrated to Ireland, possibly from Spain, and expanded to Scotland and Mann through invasion at around 500 AD. Until about 1800, they spoke a mutually intelligible language that slowly drifted apart as the prestige and mobility of Gaelic speakers was reduced due to increasingly restrictive British power. So, I have no idea what justification you have for claiming a group that spoke the same language, shared a similar system of nobility and warfare throughout the entire timeframe of this game were merely an arbitrary grouping that the Victorians invented later for the sake of sticking it to the Scots and Irish.

Meanwhile to the broader Celtic label which you lump in with Gaelic, it includes a second group; the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons who share a similarly very close history. They originated from the same group which ruled most of Post-Roman Britain until the Saxon invasions pushed them West splitting them into Wales and Cornwall. Due to the massive influx of Saxons, some Britons fled and established themselves in France where they became known as Bretons.

Both of these groups shared a common linguistic origin that is still clearly present in both languages as well as many elements of a similar class system, style of dress and way of fighting war.

I'd highly recommend that both of read a bit of the history laid out here since it's done in more detail in the thread than I could possible hope to lay out here.

I also hope it changes soon, they should be your Primary anyway, or at the least, all the cultures should become your primary when you form GB.

Why? This wasn't at all the case historically and I don't think GB is underpowered in game for having a few rebels.

Many of the Scotland vs. England conflicts in the CK2 and EUIV timeframes featured English armies consisting mostly of Lowlanders.

Could you give an example of this? Because I'm almost certain that you mean conflicts between Scots and Britain. I don't think the Lowlanders ever rushed under the English banner. I'm not trying to be pedantic or anything, I'm just honestly confused.

 

[spinoza013]

"A history of Scotland" done by the historian Neil Oliver

Yeah, he lives round the corner from me.

 

[MacDuffin]

Sorry but actually people outside the UK would be able to judge better the historical situation rather than the local themselves that naturally tend to mix recent history with actual historical facts.

I don't think that's true at all, there are certainly people of bias, but generally everyone has a right to opinion and if they can offer valid points it shouldn't be ignored.
Personally, most of my family comes from Presbyterian highland clans, and that's one of the major reasons why I want to see them represented, but that isn't the only one. Its clear that Scotland was divided culturally when it came towards the Union of Crowns and Ireland was fiercely independent of England, not necessarily nationalistic, but certainly desired autonomy.

Anyways, my point being that everyone on the board should have a say, whether or not they have bias to the subject.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

It occurred at the same time as the more well known Irish potato famine. Along with the wiki links MetaAdInfinitum here is a link to a clip from "A history of Scotland" done by the historian Neil Oliver which talks about it:

Potato blight hit everywhere, there was a famine in England as well it was just considerably minor in comparison due to better diet diversity. Outside of Ireland and Scotland I think the low countries had the worse famine.

I
The culture of druids and so forth is correctly referred to as Brythonic (if it's in southern Britain or sometimes Brittany) or Gaelic (if it's in Scotland, Ireland or the Isle of Man).

The druids were Celts. Brythonic peoples may have had Druids as well and Caesar claims Druidism originated in Britain but all the actual historical Druids we have textual evidence for by name came from Gaul on the mainland.

Historians mention Irish Druids a lot but the evidence for them is very shaky.

That's not to say that people in Ireland, Scotland, Wales etc. don't make the same mistake - they do, all the time, although some of them might well know better and deliberately call it Celtic for the tourists (although, to be fair to Irish people, they do tend to say "Gaels" instead of "Celts" when referring to the people).

Its not incorrect in modern times to call the Irish Celts, its based off a academic mistake but so are a lot of other labels.

And yes, as previous posters have said, Highland vs. Lowland conflict existed.

Not as much as highland vs highland. The Kings in Lothian often had pretty much no control over the highlanders, but that's more due to them being powerful nobles in a weak monarchy than a result of the cultural variance. Clan leaders could get away from stuff because they were rich and powerful.

To be honest I think its kind of a myth that the Irish were naturally unruly. English people rebelled against the English monarchy a lot as well. The main difference was in how brutally the English responded.

Ireland was treated like a colony in ways that Scotland and Wales were not.

 

[Grimely]

As for Basque, I don't know much about the culture and whether there is a cultural split from the rest of Europe as big as the linguistic one.

The Basque Country has retained a coherent cultural tradition despite literal centuries of rule by both the Spanish and French crowns, their culture predating not only the Moors, Romans and Phoenicians but also the Great Migration Period and the arrival of the Celts. It is altogether wrong to lump them in with Spanish and the honest fact is that Paradox did it to prevent the AI from doing the sensible thing and converting their culture as soon as possible. Instead of, you know, reworking cultural conversion. But hey, can't get rid of a bird mana sink!