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Grand Pope Papa

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How different were English/Scotish/Highlander/Welsh/Irish cultures and their language at the time? More different than Bretton and French or Swiss and Prussian or Navaran and Portugese or Albanian and Romanian that they cant be in the same cultural group like these examples?

I was once in Ireland and they speak English and eat eggs, sousage, sweet beans and toast for breakfast :) Maybe it was more different back than so please explain it to me
 
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Lamahorse

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The answer to your question is to google the difference between an Irish, English and Scottish breakfast.

Modern Irish and Scots Gaelic are mutually intelligible. You could be controversial and say that Scots Gaelic is simply just a badly spelled dialect of Irish. Genetic studies of various family names both in Ireland and Scotland prove that Ulster and Scotland have been swapping populations for over a thousand years.

Scotland could be potentially buffed to a degree that it actually gives England some trouble instead of being ingested in one war by England.
 
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Honestly, I'd rather see Scottish join the Celtic group and English join the Germanic group.
Unless you divide Highland and Lowland.

I really don't want to see the Irish join the British group... it makes absolutely no sense.
English really, REALLY shouldn't be in the Germanic group. Sure, English is a Germanic language, but that doesn't mean it's German. That's like arguing that Portugal should be in the Italian group because Portuguese is a Romance language and Roma is in Italy. It's just a terrible idea.
 
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Tacticus101

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That's the basically the point I'm trying to make, in the modern sense "Britishness" is Englishness, to be "British" means different things to different people, it usually means English but can also often be used by non-caucasian heritage peoples living in the U.K. or who have a link to the U.K. who don't want to refer to themselves as English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish and also a small minority of people who also refer to themselves as Welsh/Scottish/Irish. The census information I mentioned supports that.

The Census information you mentioned disproved your claim actually.

A larger proportion of people in England put their nationality as English in England than put their nationality as Welsh in Wales. About the same numbers in each country describe themselves as British (and again the same for Scotland). If you were correct, and British and English was synonymous, then more English people would put their identity as British. They don't, there is very little difference between the Welsh and English identifications with "Britishness".

YOU may think that being British is the same thing as being English, but statistically the rest of the UK disagrees.

And anyway, read my post, Britishness is a modern political idea, being British is a historically accurate description.

In 1444 "British" has completely different context, The English shouldn't be called British at that time, because they weren't by the definitions of that time. Whatever the case may be in 1444 Welsh and English cultures should not be in the same culture group. I think if you spoke to a Welsh person or an English person in 1444 are they roughly part of the same culture group the fact that you'd have to speak to them in different languages that neither would remotely understand gives you your answer. The genetic data you mention is modern data, people have passed their genes on a lot over nearly 600 years things have changed, the non English peoples would have had much less English associated genes then. I'm aware the "Celtic" peoples ethnicity is varied within each "Celtic" nation the cultural identity that brought them together is language and perhaps the resistance of settlers/invaders not a mono ethnicity.

If we are talking 1444 then the Welsh language had already been outlawed and English was the official language of correspondence, so you would have been fine speaking English in Wales. Also, considering the lack of unified dictionaries, people would have struggled to understand other English speakers across the country due to different dialects and local cultures. In fact, a Welsh person would not have been able to understand someone speaking Irish or Scottish and might have struggled in other parts of Wales, so your point is moot regardless.

As for genetics...I don't think you understand the way they work. The study looked for the spread of genetic markers that mark common ancestry, the English have more Germanic decent than the other inhabitants of the British isles (higher in the south east, less the further west you go), but still share far more of common ancestry with the other Celtic peoples. In other words, a relatively small number of Anglo-Saxons turned up and interbred with the local Celtic population, they did not displace them.

And in fact the Celtic peoples are similar Ethnically, they are far more similar to each other than the rest of Europe (other than the Basque). The language they all have has the same roots (at the most they are sister languages), there is some suggestion that the English language is actually grammatically similar as well.
 
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The English tried outlawing several of the Celtic languages repeatedly. They never came to a great deal of success with it, except maybe inside of the Pale and in the Canadian Maritimes. Barring it as the official language of correspondance only meant that Nobles were barred from it as the vast majority were illiterate anyway and Monks and others would prefer French. Aside from that Shakespeare's Henry IV Part II testifies to the presence of Nobles who spoke exclusively Welsh as well. If you wandered around Northern Wales, speaking only English around 1500, you might as well have been speaking Russian. In Ireland, the worst damage to Irish language was done by a combination of the famine and then incompetant but well meaning governmental policies of the Irish Free State (due in part to increased globalization).

English has very minor Celtic influence that differentiates it from other Germanic languages, but far far more in the way of French influence. Most of what is celtic influenced is heavily disputed, one of the more significant and less controversial is the verb "do" which (initially) mimicked the Celtic habitual present. This is most visible in the old Hiberno-English construction of "He do be..." to indicate that someone is actively doing something. This is a unique quirk, sure, but hardly a defining corner stone of English. Especially when you consider that the use of "do" has shifted away from the more Celtic construction into something that's uniquely English.

Now, in terms of similarity; As an English speaker, I can squint my eyes and make out some Dutch and Frisian but a LOT of Scots and with my French, I can understand most of a technical article written in Spanish or Occitan. In the same way as learning Irish speaker, I can puzzle out a good bit of Welsh. It's not mutually comprehensible, no, but they are very closely related.

Historically and culturally the Celts had far more in common with eachother than the English. The English were a mixed culture from the start; originating and remaining close to West Germans but drawing substantial influence from the French (particularly amongst their nobility and educated classes), Scandinavians and yes, Celts. But that is hardly justification for merging the English into Celtic groups any more than chucking the French in with Germanic because of their Frankish heritage.

Now, to genetics; I'll have to say I'm very skeptical about trying to pin the culture of nations based on this matter. From my studies on it, the over all genetics of Europe have been fairly sedentary and likely predate the arrival of the IE peoples. Mixing has always occurred and these groups shift a little and there are points where it spikes, but it is language and culture which has us give narrative to this. The arrival of the Celts, expansion of the Roman Empire and the invasions of the Germans didn't really do much to fundamentally alter the genetic code of the people living in Gaul or Iberia. What it did change is language and customs. And I think it is clear that during the period from the 14th to 19th Centuries, the language and customs of the Celtic peoples of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, shared a resemblance which did not exist amongst the English or French people who ruled them.

How different were English/Scotish/Highlander/Welsh/Irish cultures and their language at the time? More different than Bretton and French or Swiss and Prussian or Navaran and Portugese or Albanian and Romanian that they cant be in the same cultural group like these examples?

Here is a modern comparison of colour terms between the Celtic languages and English; http://www.omniglot.com/language/celtic/connections/colours.htm#colours

The Scots language (common to the lowlands) reads like this; https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

I'd say the differences between this and English are roughly analogous as those between Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic. Reading Welsh or Breton would be rather like trying to read Dutch or Frisian. Indeed, Welsh and Breton are actually fairly close, except that the Bretons have adopted a few more French influenced spelling customs where the Welsh and Cornish are more insular.

I'm actually really annoyed by these moves to put Breton in the French Culture group and other mergers that didn't fly in EU3, so as I've said; putting the Celts and English into a "British" group would be inaccurate but it seems to match the general direction of things.

As to Culture? Yes, the Celts were profoundly different. Leaving aside language (along with that their traditional legends, stories and so forth) for a moment; their manner of dress, customs of rulership and inheritance, poetic and musical culture differed greatly and their classes system and laws were profoundly different until very late in the game due to British rule. Arguably, the United Irishmen (around 1800) represent the first major uprising which didn't draw on Gaelic nobility and law but were instead largely Protestant and influenced by French Revolutionary law. Brehon law, which long predates English occupation (and perhaps even the Saxon invasions) was in effect in Gaelic Ireland until the end of the 16th century with the Nine Years War and the Flight of the Earls. War was fought differently by Gaelic Gallowglass and Kern compared to the English Knights and Longbowmen. I really don't know what else you would need to differ between these groups; the only thing they had in common is that the both inhabited a group of islands off Europe and were (initially) all catholic and under Norman rule.


English really, REALLY shouldn't be in the Germanic group. Sure, English is a Germanic language, but that doesn't mean it's German. That's like arguing that Portugal should be in the Italian group because Portuguese is a Romance language and Roma is in Italy. It's just a terrible idea.

I agree with Germany at large, though I could see an argument for grouping the English with the Dutch, Flemish and Frisians if someone felt the urge to put them into a cultural group with some mainland Europeans. Though this would mean splitting Dutch from the German cultural group which would be a really weird idea for a lot of reasons, so don't take me as supporting it.

But right now, I feel as though the argument that Gaels and Welsh ought to be merged into a "British" group and Bretons belong under France is analogous to saying "Well, English were ruled by Normans who spoke French and wanted the French throne, so why not make English a part of the French Cultural group?" It's just lumping groups together based off of where the nation historically conquered which doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Nobility, Merchants and the Educated in England may have spoken French for several centuries, but very few would advocate making English a French subcultural group, because the vast majority of the inhabitants identified as distinctly English and brought their language to government once they rose to prominence. Why should the Irish be reduced to a British subgroup simply because they were ruled at times by English and Norman speaking Monarchs? Irish, Welsh and even the Cornish rose up at times under leaders speaking their own language and abiding by their own regional customs. There's no reason to believe that, if France's power waned and Brittany's rose, the Breton nobles would keep the French tongue rather than, like the Normans, adopting their regional language.

It's not as though France or England are often put into losing games for the sake of a couple poorer provinces at the edge of this historical territories having a Celtic culture. I really don't think the Big Blue Blob is going to collapse for the sake of a handful of Breton provinces, even under AI. Meanwhile, there are a lot of us who play Celt games where these handful of provinces make a huge difference and it is satisfying to fight and curb two of the most powerful nations both in the game and historically in order to forge an unlikely Empire. This move would take away one of the few advantages available to players trying for this and make it less fulfilling.
 
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Macsen

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As for genetics...

You're arguing that there was more of a link between the English and Welsh in 1444 than there was Tacticus101, it's the differences in gentics that make all the difference we are all 99% chimp supposedly, and anyway what I was getting at is ethnicity isn't the governing factor with cultural identity. Most of Europe is white and speaks an indo-european language... are we all the same culture? The differences in this time period are different enough to be considered a different culture and culture group.

Language wise a Welsh person would understand some Cornish/Breton at this time the odd words or meaning of Gaelic but only understand English if they had learned it specifically. Your mention of Welsh being outlawed is laughable you think everyone started speaking English straight away? Encounters between many English and Welsh would be rare, the rulers don't spend time with the ruled. Positions of power went to those who spoke English i.e. in most cases incoming English. There are no cities for people to meet, it was a very rural society change took a long time. It was well into the 1800's and the industrial revolution before Welsh started to decline and English was more frequently spoken, most would not have been bi-lingual prior to this time.

During this time frame English and Welsh should not be in the same culture group.

And whether or not you think being "British" in the modern sense is not synonymous with being English or being linked to Englishness many do, go to a bar in certain parts of Glasgow or Belfast, parts of Wales even and say to them you're British because you live in the British Isles or whatever you think being British means (you haven't said) see if they agree.
 
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Grand Pope Papa

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South slavic culture group has Albanians, Romanians and Serbs in it They have nothing in common with each other, not language not customs, but still they are in the same group for gaming reasons. So if you take OPM Albania you will at least only have a penalty for unaccepted culture for the same culture group. Why not do the same for Ireland and British?

When I click on the culture map mode I would rather see Ireland with Irish culture than all converted to English by the AI or me :)
 
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Zerodv

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South slavic culture group has Albanians, Romanians and Serbs in it They have nothing in common with each other, not language not customs, but still they are in the same group for gaming reasons. So if you take OPM Albania you will at least only have a penalty for unaccepted culture for the same culture group. Why not do the same for Ireland and British?

When I click on the culture map mode I would rather see Ireland with Irish culture than all converted to English by the AI or me :)
Albanian is a OPM culture in one of the worst province in the world, so this argument is pretty much non sense.
The way the Irish fighted English control of islands is not something you can just ignore, English was not even widespread as today.
 
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South slavic culture group has Albanians, Romanians and Serbs in it They have nothing in common with each other, not language not customs, but still they are in the same group for gaming reasons. So if you take OPM Albania you will at least only have a penalty for unaccepted culture for the same culture group. Why not do the same for Ireland and British?

When I click on the culture map mode I would rather see Ireland with Irish culture than all converted to English by the AI or me :)

There is a tendancy to do this which has become more prominent in EUIV and I've said here and elsewhere that I don't like it. On the otherhand, the lumping you are referring is at least vaguely justifiable under the basis of the Balkan Sprachbund; these languages (as well as some others who, admittedly, were not grouped in) shared a great deal in common with eachother when compared to non-Balkan variants of their own families due to extended time and culture. There's an article on it here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

This is not the case with Celtic language and English now; there are some borrowed phrases and expressions, but Celtic languages at large have been remarkably conservative; Breton and Welsh share a close family resemblance despite them being in different spheres of linguistic influence (French and English respectively) for the better part of the last 500 hundred years.

Also, personally, I'd rather see the Irish fighting for freedom or crushed and converted as the English come up to a morbid final anwser to the Irish Question. This was a historical concern at large and accurately reflects what happened in Ulster (though admittedly this was Scotch more than English culture that was transferred).

I'm not really sure who wins in this case; what you're proposing over looks very serious historical issues between the two groups, annoys people who enjoy playing the game as Celts and frankly, it makes a less interesting game for the English who already have it incredibly easy. I don't feel that Ireland is better represented as a surviving English subculture than a Celtic culture that risks annihilation but also has the capacity to break off and emerge as a nation in its own right.
 
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to be honest I just want the irish/welsh in the british group so the AI doesn't culture convert them immediately =/ I will take that over them disappearing 50 years into the game.

((well that and a few more provinces in Ireland, one or two in Scotland and then powys in wales)
 
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The current cultural conversion mechanics are kind of awful anyway.

England tried to plant Ireland several times. In game if Great Britain culture converted Ulster, it would end up English as opposed the Scots culture that she ended up in reality.
 
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Macsen

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to be honest I just want the irish/welsh in the british group so the AI doesn't culture convert them immediately

A quote by William Richards taken from wikipedia an English Priest from Northamptonshire 1682 about the Welsh: "The native gibberish is usually prattled throughout the whole of Taphydom except in their market towns, whose inhabitants being a little raised do begin to despise it. 'Tis usually cashiered out of gentlemen's houses ... so that (if the stars prove lucky) there may be some glimmering hopes that the British language may be quite extinct and may be Englished out of Wales.

Kinda proves my point that the English didn't consider themselves British at this point in time. "Cultural conversion" was the desired outcome of the English establishment, the AI is being historically accurate to attempt it
 

grommile

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And remember: the Irish were cited, in period English-language works discussing the pre-Columbian peoples of North America, as a byword for savagery.

These were not accepted cultures.
 
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Grand Pope Papa

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And remember: the Irish were cited, in period English-language works discussing the pre-Columbian peoples of North America, as a byword for savagery.

These were not accepted cultures.

Yes but this is a game where Albanian culture is in the same culture group as Romanian. Or Polish and Czech. Why would Irish culture have more reasons to be in their own culture group? Breton went to French. Why not Irish to British?
 
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Grant_Rebel

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It should be remembered that the population of Scotland was much more uniformly distributed until the impact of the highland potato famine and highland clearances 1780 to 1886 forced the population to various colonies and the south. Something that should help support Autonomous' map on Pg4.

As for the distribution for Gaelic Highlanders if such a culture is included this is map of Celtic/germanic placenames by 1400 (early for Eu4 I know). Wikipedia also mentions that the River tay was the northern most extent of the English Scots language by the end of the late middle ages.
wms0350.jpg


Using this information we'd have the following culture distribution within scotland based on Autonomous's province map on page 4. Aberdeenshire could be up in the air. Galloway was considered Gaelic Scotland until roughly the 16th century.

Culture_proposal.png


By having this distribution a cultural union could potentially be in place by the 1444 start with a primary Scots culture (as opposed to Gael) allowing scotland to remain strong enough to fight in the early game start. A culture conversion event chain could be included if Devs were feeling nice and might be a nice way of representing the spread of Scots or alternatively Gael depending on player choices.
 
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MetaAdInfinitum

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Yes but this is a game where Albanian culture is in the same culture group as Romanian. Or Polish and Czech. Why would Irish culture have more reasons to be in their own culture group? Breton went to French. Why not Irish to British?

Polish and Czech aren't that different linguistically. I've given the Sprachbund argument for the Balkans culture group, even if I don't like it persay. Brittany has had a history of alliance with French, but I've been very vocal about disliking that.

But I really to know why the historically rebellious and independent Gaels which have very little in common with their English counterparts ought to be absorbed into the same group as English other than "It would make them easier to conquer".

I've given you Sprachbund as a baseline for the Albanian-Romanian grouping; they also do share a great deal of history during the period, resisting a common larger enemy (and in this game are threatened by several large AI empires, thus might appreciate the support). The Irish meanwhile were less affected by English ebbs and flows except in so far as it distracted the attention of their foes or forced them to loosen restraints.


The current cultural conversion mechanics are kind of awful anyway.

England tried to plant Ireland several times. In game if Great Britain culture converted Ulster, it would end up English as opposed the Scots culture that she ended up in reality.

Actually, the Ulster plantation began under the reign of the first King of Scotland and England, who was originally Scottish. Beginning roughly 3 years after his coronation of King of England via Personal Union. If this was EU mechanics, it'd be a Scottish PU with England as the junior partner. The formation of Great Britain came nearly a century later. This would come twenty years after the "Glorious Revolution" which would be represented best by the Dutch placing in English Culture Reformation Rebels which the player would immediately capitulate to in order to shift culture and faith.

Presumably assimilation of England would have to happen at some point between 1609 and 1688 in order for the Scottish player to capitulate to the London rebels.

It's convoluted certainly, but that's how it actually went down.

?? Must have missed that.

The Irish were hit worse by the potato blight, but they were far from the only ones hit;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Potato_Famine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Potato_Failure
 
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?? Must have missed that.

It occurred at the same time as the more well known Irish potato famine. Along with the wiki links MetaAdInfinitum here is a link to a clip from "A history of Scotland" done by the historian Neil Oliver which talks about it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/land_and_votes/scottish_potato_blight/

I recommend watching "A history of Scotland" along with "The Story of Wales" both good general BBC documentaries.


On the subject of merging Celtic into the British culture group.

Could we please have an decision to include Ireland (if held by a vassal, maybe held by the player too) when forming Great Britian; as in real life there were calls by the Irish Parliament to be included in the 1707 Acts of union "... to add greater strength and lustre to your [Queen Anne's] crown, by a still more comprehensive Union". If not that, an 1801 Acts of Union decision would be welcomed too. No idea what benefits or penalties they would occur though.


When more providences are added to the British Isles could England (along with Scotland, Ireland, and Wales) get a few more too please? The Duchy of Cornwall could be broken into it's two counties: Cornwall and Devonshire. Splitting Yorkshire into it's three ridings could also be done. I would also add: The Isle of Wight, Somerset, Suffolk, the Channel Isles (or move it to be part of Wessex instead or Normandy).


The addition of the Isle of Man could also have an achievement attached to it: Union of the Seven Kingdoms. As the Isle of Man control the British Isles and Rome. It's a reference that you can see seven Kingdoms from the top of Mt Snaefell: England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Man, Heaven, and the Sea.
 
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Cinigs

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I think a lot of Irish men would take exception to your suggestion and I think they would be right. Come to think of it there might be a case for Ireland having hostile core creation costs. If Britain succeeds in conquering the country then fair enough - let them culture convert. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Maybe there could be a DHE related to the plantations though. Say give the option of having Irish as an accepted culture but with a massive jump in revolt risk for a long period of time, or do nothing. I've put all of 30 seconds thought into that one. I'm sure someone can come up with something much cooler. Someone else suggests more provinces for Ireland above. I see that suggested here from time to time but I just don't see the need for it.

Never advocate for more hostile core creation.
 
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grommile

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Yes but this is a game where Albanian culture is in the same culture group as Romanian. Or Polish and Czech. Why would Irish culture have more reasons to be in their own culture group? Breton went to French. Why not Irish to British?
The Irish were considerably more hostile to Westminster than the Bretons were to Paris.
 
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