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jacobsighs

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My suggestion: move Welsh and Cornish to the British group, rename Scottish to Lowlander, create new Highlander culture in Celtic group, make some of Scotland Highlander. I think it would also be fair to make Highlander accepted in Scotland, but with high autonomy.
 

MetaAdInfinitum

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The thing is though; Welsh are far closer to Highland Scots than English. Early in the game they still had the vestiges of the old Celtic tribal systems and numerous customs keep through.

I'd argue that Scots as a whole might suit as Celtic due to identification reasons. Lowlanders were resistant to English rule and despite tension were able to co-operate with Highlanders. It would also make Scotland more stable defensively against the English.

Sure it makes breaking off Northumbria slightly harder for a Scotch player, but I don't know if that's a problem. I mean historically, Scotland just lopping off the Northern half of England would definitely have led to tensions and not been easy to begin with. Aside from that it wouldn't be hard for them to get English as an accepted culture. Plus, it makes Ireland more of battleground and concern for the English; Scots sharing a culture with them would make holding the Irish easier and would threaten an English flank. This was a historic concern as well, iirc.

That'd be my argument for game balance if that's a concern. For the sake of historical accuracy, a Lowland/Highland split is fair, but there was a sense of common national identity that is represented better (I believe at least) by giving them a culture grouped different from the English and united so that even the Lowlands are inclined to resist a hostile English take over and to co-operate with the Celtic highlands. If that can be solved for, while keeping Scotland and Ireland playable? Then splitting would be best. Apparently there was income penalties that made this difficult however.

edit: Also to an earlier quote; Cornish (which was a living language from the beginning of the game until the end) is most closely related to Breton but Cornwall was called "West Wales" for a long time and shared many concerns and customs with the Welsh while drifting further from Brittany so I understand the move to merge them. There were a couple significant revolts in Cornwall during the period of EU in response to English church law and other cultural concerns, so I'd say while you might argue that they are presently more culturally English than Welsh, it was not the case at the time.
 
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Ashantai

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I was under the impression that way back in the first release of EU3 that there were separate Scottish cultures and they were removed because of issues with the Great Britain union?
 

quinntan2222

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I was under the impression that way back in the first release of EU3 that there were separate Scottish cultures and they were removed because of issues with the Great Britain union?
Yes in EU3 there was Highland Scottish and Lowland Scottish but Highland Scottish was removed because the highlands would often defect to Ireland and Scottish in general was placed in the British group so England and Scotland would get free cores when PUing and inheriting each other. Both the core system and rebel systems have been reworked so there's no reason not to have Highlander and Lowlander again.
 
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MetaAdInfinitum

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Oh, well, if the old problems can be avoided, I'm all for the split.

One last note here; does anyone have a link to the dev diary or some kind of rational for switching Breton to a French culture? I just can't see them as being that big a threat to the French game, while a continental nation pointed at Ireland and Wales for conquest was always fun to play.
 
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Snugwow

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My personal opinion on the situation is that Celtic should be an Irish only group just like how Magyar/Hungarian is an exclusive group. Welsh, Scottish, English should all be in a British group. Ireland and Scotland though should have more provinces than they do now so that England doesn't just steamroll through the entire British isles in the first 30 years of the game like they do now. An England that loses the HYW and all of its continental possessions shouldn't remain so overwhelmingly dominant among the British tags, but still the obviously strongest one.

Scotland should also have some sort of event chain to acquire Orkney and Shetland from Danish-ruled Norway and some relations boost of some sort as they acquired them in 1469 in real life through marriage with the Danish monarch. Ireland should see some love too with at least 2 new provinces and a Center of Trade on Dublin, but it still should only consist of a horde of OPM's. A united Ireland should be stronger than the pitiful 5 poor provinces it is now.

Also just for fun: Isle of Man OPM with a Celtic group Manx culture and unique tag "Mann" w/ ideas would also be fun. I do enjoy having more options in the major Euro regions, like being able to form Russia with different ideas via one of the smaller Russian tags.
 
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Andrzej2

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. First, it would solve the problem of the English culture converting their problems away

Just get rid of this stupid system of culture convertions. I have made suggestion once - diplomatic points should be spend not for convertion of cultures ( that should be impossible) but to make them acceptable (so there shouldn't be acceptance of cultures based on base tax). Process of accepting culture should be similar to westernization (with some events that can set back procces like: nobility of your culture protesting against expanding privileges on nobles from foreign origin, foreign support for separatist movement, disorders in multicultural towns etc).
 
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Fluffy_Fishy

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Just get rid of this stupid system of culture convertions. I have made suggestion once - diplomatic points should be spend not for convertion of cultures ( that should be impossible) but to make them acceptable (so there shouldn't be acceptance of cultures based on base tax). Process of accepting culture should be similar to westernization (with some events that can set back procces like: nobility of your culture protesting against expanding privileges on nobles from foreign origin, foreign support for separatist movement, disorders in multicultural towns etc).
Yes finally someone who agrees with something similar to what I have been suggesting! cultural acceptance is an odd mechanic and I didn't like how Breton got Frenched that's a really sensible suggestion if you ask me
 
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spinoza013

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l
That is... not how I'd do it. Clydesdale split in two? Western Clydesdale in Argyll? Eastern Clydesdale and Stirling conjoined with swathes of Grampian wasteland?

You want to split the central belt from the uplands for terrain/manoeuvering purposes, I think. Especially now that terrain is so key to development. I think my ideal setup would be something like this

Well if we can have 10 provinces I'd definitely prefer your set up for sure. I thought I was being optimistic asking for 2 extra provinces :)
 

Macsen

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Before Wiz or anyone else at Paradox moves Wales/Welsh into the "British" Cultural group I think they should know what "Britishness" or to be "British" means.

Welsh politician Gwynfor Evans said of Britishness, "Britishness... is a political synonym for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish"

To paraprhase to be "British" has become a political term, it's no longer linked to the Welsh and the Cornish who take their ethnic and linguistic heritage from the original known settlers from what I believe Romans called Britannia aka the Britons peoples. It is a term of domination of the English over the "Celtic" peoples and the general eradication of their languages, cultural identities and right to rule themselves, and to some though certainly not all Welsh,Scots or Irish being called "British" can be deemed offensive.

In the 2011 Census people in Wales for the first time had the opportunity to describe themselves as Welsh (2011 shocking eh) which the majority did as Wales is obviously the home of the Welsh, only 10% of those stating they were Welsh also chose to identify themselves as British.

Wales in 1444 has no place in the same cultural group as the English we were vastly different peoples and "British" as the political term didn't exist then and the cultural term had nothing to do with the English. Owain Glyndŵr's rebellion from English rule and temporary de facto independence where French forces landed in Wales to help out (never represented in previous games 1400 start sadly) was still in living memory.

If for some reason Paradox has to reduce the culture group numbers add the Welsh to the Irish or Celtic group, it makes much more sense though Wales/Cornwall/Bretons deserve their own group!!!!

I posted this before but this is how I'd group things:

Brythonic: Welsh/Cornish/Breton
Gaelic: Irish/Highland Scots
Anglo/Anglicised*: English/Lowland Scots/Americans (United Statesians)

And give decisions/events if possible for certain cultures to be accepted if possible e.g.

Scotland: Highland Scots
British Empire: Cornish/Welsh/Scotish Lowland and Highland/Irish

*An adequate culture name that describes English, Lowland Scots and Americans is difficult, British doesn't make sense for multiple reasons, Anglo or Anglo-Saxon may offend modern day Scots but is perhaps accurate for Lowland Scots there was a good post on this earlier in the thread and Americans though mainly from Anglo origins during this time frame are multi-cultural.
 
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Tacticus101

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Before Wiz or anyone else at Paradox moves Wales/Welsh into the "British" Cultural group I think they should know what "Britishness" or to be "British" means .


Welsh politician Gwynfor Evans said of Britishness, "Britishness... is a political synonym for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, the Welsh, and the Irish".

"Britishness" is a modern concept that is usually used after the acts of union by politicians to try and create a sense of British identity, particularly by modern right wing parties. It has become synonymous with English due to the English political dominance and the recent rise of Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish nationalist parties who want to create a separate parliament for their countries and therefore need to undermine the existing UK (British) parliament.

The fact that you are quoting a president and first MP of Plaid Cymru, a party whose purpose is to gain autonomy for Wales and encourage a national identity, who was politically active during a turbulent time and who wrote some VERY nationalist books, I feel highlights my point.


To paraprhase to be "British" has become a political term, it's no longer linked to the Welsh and the Cornish who take their ethnic and linguistic heritage from the original known settlers from what I believe Romans called Britannia aka the Britons peoples. It is a term of domination of the English over the "Celtic" peoples and the general eradication of their languages, cultural identities and right to rule themselves, and to some though certainly not all Welsh, Scots or Irish being called "British" can be deemed offensive..

"Britishness" is not the same as "British", "Briton", "Britain" or "Britannia". One is a politically loaded term used by politicians for political goals, the others are names for the people and land of Albion, names from the original Celtic that were then Latinised by the Romans. The word "Britain" is used in the first recorded (Greek) texts as the name of our Island(s).

In terms of "domination and general eradication of language and culture", it was the English Kingdom, before there was such a thing as Great Britain, who attempted to eradicate the welsh language and conquer Scotland. It was during the English civil war that they attempted to do the same to Ireland. I will also remind you that it was a Scottish king who came to power in England, not the other way around, England had not tried to conquer Scotland for a while by that point.

As for some sort of Ethnic difference between the "English" and "Celtic" peoples, that has been disproved by genetic studies. The English are 70-80% the same people as the Welsh and the Cornish are actually ethnically more similar to the English than to the Welsh. They are all still the same original Brittonic peoples who settled the lands, with varying amounts of European influence.

In the 2011 Census people in Wales for the first time had the opportunity to describe themselves as Welsh (2011 shocking eh) which the majority did as Wales is obviously the home of the Welsh, only 10% of those stating they were Welsh also chose to identify themselves as British..

2011 was also the first Census where people in England had the option to describe themselves as English. They were both absent as an option from the 2001 census and the same campaign to make Welsh an option was also about making English an option.

58% of people in wales described themselves as Welsh only. That is SMALLER than the percentage of people in Scotland who identified as Scottish only and the percentage of people in England who voted English only (both larger than 60%). Whilst only 10% stated they were Welsh and British, almost 20% were British only and over 10% described themselves as English. In fact, Wales actually had the same proportion of people who identified as being British as Scotland and England (only London has any sort of difference from the rest of the country).

Stop trying to quote out of context statistic, according to the census data there is no such thing as British being the same as English.

Wales in 1444 has no place in the same cultural group as the English we were vastly different peoples and "British" as the political term didn't exist then and the cultural term had nothing to do with the English. Owain Glyndŵr's rebellion from English rule and temporary de facto independence where French forces landed in Wales to help out (never represented in previous games 1400 start sadly) was still in living memory..

The cultural term "British" has everything to with the English. The political term didn't exist because no one had come closer to controlling the entirety of the isles.

But quoting a political rebellion means nothing, no one is arguing that Welsh stop existing as a culture or that they liked each other. There are plenty of same culture group cultures that dislike each other.

*An adequate culture name that describes English, Lowland Scots and Americans is difficult, British doesn't make sense for multiple reasons, Anglo or Anglo-Saxon may offend modern day Scots but is perhaps accurate for Lowland Scots there was a good post on this earlier in the thread and Americans though mainly from Anglo origins during this time frame are multi-cultural.

Anglo-saxon is offensive to modern day English people as well. It is a bit like making English part of the French culture group.
 
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Grand Pope Papa

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Why split Scotish? This does not make a lot of sence. Scotland is already strugling against England. And should part of scotland belong to the celtic group than you have the same problem where England or even Scotland would just culture convert these provinces.

Make it simple. Everything on the Britain island belongs to the British culture group and everything on the Ireland island belongs to the Irish culture, which is not part of any group. Or just bring Irish to the Britsih culture group. How different were their cultures and language after all.
If Perm and Hungary are part of the same culture why not Britain and Ireland?
 
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Zerodv

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Anglo-saxon is offensive to modern day English people as well. It is a bit like making English part of the French culture group.
What is the part of "anglo" and "saxon" that describes french?

Why split Scotish? This does not make a lot of sence. Scotland is already strugling against England. And should part of scotland belong to the celtic group than you have the same problem where England or even Scotland would just culture convert these provinces.

Make it simple. Everything on the Britain island belongs to the British culture group and everything on the Ireland island belongs to the Irish culture, which is not part of any group. Or just bring Irish to the Britsih culture group. How different were their cultures and language after all.
If Perm and Hungary are part of the same culture why not Britain and Ireland?
Perm and Hungary aren´t part of the same culture and is not like Cornish and other Celtic groups weren´t dying during the time so the argument "they would be converted after a couple year" is not applicable.

I prefer to have the current setup+the new highlander culture.
 
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Tacticus101

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What is the part of "anglo" and "saxon" that describes french?

I'm not saying it does. I am saying that labelling the English culture as part of the anglo-saxon group, a group of Germanic conquerors, would be the same as making them Norman and part of the French group. If being anglo-saxon is insulting to the Scottish, who have their own distinct culture, then why would it not be for the English?
 

Zerodv

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I'm not saying it does. I am saying that labelling the English culture as part of the anglo-saxon group, a group of Germanic conquerors, would be the same as making them Norman and part of the French group. If being anglo-saxon is insulting to the Scottish, who have their own distinct culture, then why would it not be for the English?
French people are named after a Germanic people that conquered them, Lombardy too. Of course is not the best term to use but hardly someone could be offended by that.
 
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Macsen

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The cultural term "British" has everything to with the English.

That's the basically the point I'm trying to make, in the modern sense "Britishness" is Englishness, to be "British" means different things to different people, it usually means English but can also often be used by non-caucasian heritage peoples living in the U.K. or who have a link to the U.K. who don't want to refer to themselves as English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish and also a small minority of people who also refer to themselves as Welsh/Scottish/Irish. The census information I mentioned supports that.

In 1444 "British" has completely different context, The English shouldn't be called British at that time, because they weren't by the definitions of that time. Whatever the case may be in 1444 Welsh and English cultures should not be in the same culture group. I think if you spoke to a Welsh person or an English person in 1444 are they roughly part of the same culture group the fact that you'd have to speak to them in different languages that neither would remotely understand gives you your answer. The genetic data you mention is modern data, people have passed their genes on a lot over nearly 600 years things have changed, the non English peoples would have had much less English associated genes then. I'm aware the "Celtic" peoples ethnicity is varied within each "Celtic" nation the cultural identity that brought them together is language and perhaps the resistance of settlers/invaders not a mono ethnicity.

Anglo-saxon is offensive to modern day English people as well. It is a bit like making English part of the French culture group.

I wasn't aware of that, I'd have thought it would be Germanic not French/Norman. As I mentioned it's very difficult to group those cultures together under a singular all meaning banner even more so if you added the Welsh!

I should mention that my posts are not to cause offense there aim is to stop Paradox from removing the Welsh/Brythonic/Briton culture group and adding it to a English/British dominated culture group which it shares very little in common with in 1444 and throughout the games history.

Any gameplay changes Paradox needs to make can be made without reducing historical accuracy.
 
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Daema

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Why split Scotish? This does not make a lot of sence. Scotland is already strugling against England. And should part of scotland belong to the celtic group than you have the same problem where England or even Scotland would just culture convert these provinces.

Make it simple. Everything on the Britain island belongs to the British culture group and everything on the Ireland island belongs to the Irish culture, which is not part of any group. Or just bring Irish to the Britsih culture group. How different were their cultures and language after all.
If Perm and Hungary are part of the same culture why not Britain and Ireland?

Here's Charles Trevelyan on the subject:

“A national effort” would now be necessary in order to rid the land of “the surviving Irish and Scotch Celts”. The exodus would then allow for the settlement of a racially superior people of Teutonic stock. He welcomed “the prospects of flights of Germans settling here in increasing numbers – an orderly, moral, industrious and frugal people, less foreign to us than the Irish or Scotch Celt, a congenial element which will readily assimilate with our body politic.

Of course, a single quote pales in comparison to the many examples of what the game calls 'culture conversion' directed by England/Britain against 'the Celts'. Whether or not 'Celtic' should be a single group is up for debate, but the British group should not be expanded beyond English and Lowland Scottish, those were the only parts of the isles spared from attempts to eradicate their languages and cultures (since they were directing those attempts).
 
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Anglo is not offensive in England at all. Its not exactly used in common conversation but if we had been arsed about it we wouldn't call our country England (Land of the the Angles) and we wouldn't still refer to Anglo-X treaties, Anglo-American Economonics etc.
 

MacDuffin

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Why split Scotish? This does not make a lot of sence. Scotland is already strugling against England. And should part of scotland belong to the celtic group than you have the same problem where England or even Scotland would just culture convert these provinces.

Make it simple. Everything on the Britain island belongs to the British culture group and everything on the Ireland island belongs to the Irish culture, which is not part of any group. Or just bring Irish to the Britsih culture group. How different were their cultures and language after all.
If Perm and Hungary are part of the same culture why not Britain and Ireland?
While not a enormous buff, but I recall a post on making the Western Isles a vassal of Scotlands. It is historically independent at this time, and if we're given unique Highlander Ideas, maybe we can further boost the manpower/force limit that it has.
The Isles don't contribute much in the way of anything for Scotland at the beginning, and making it a vassal will definitely add more troops to the fight. Not only this, but the Highlander (and possibly Irish) groups could have traits that strongly resist foreign threats, like the Highlanders are Coming event.

I don't think its a permanent solution, but the way Britain is right now, it could definitely do some focusing on other regions then England. A Celtic unit/pack would not hurt either. Having some Gallowglass followed by full tartan warriors would spice things up (if they survive).
 
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RorySheen

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Honestly, I'd rather see Scottish join the Celtic group and English join the Germanic group.
Unless you divide Highland and Lowland.

I really don't want to see the Irish join the British group... it makes absolutely no sense.
 
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