Merging Celtic with British?

[Torugu]

Ireland definitely needs MUCH more provinces to represent the situation back then, 5 provinces just aren't enough. If Beyond the Pale mod did the most accurate representation of Ireland, then seems like Ireland is missing some 15 minors and 2 cultures...

And the HRE is missing 2000 to 3000 minors (this is not an exaggeration, HRE pre 30-year war was a mess) and probably several hundred cultures, depending on how you define culture. Of course that's not possible or in any way sensible, but Ireland is one of the most remote corners of the map, relevant only for England, Scotland and of course Irish minors and I'd much rather the team spends effort on parts of the map that see more action.

 

[aplsin]

Based on relations with other nations of the same culture and/or culture group.
Right now, if you play as Denmark and have a series of nasty wars with Sweden so you hate each other's guts culture will still be accepted easily because as we all know, Danes and Swedes are both Scandinavian and so they'll always easily accept each other. If reality if there have been constant wars between two very similar people groups you'll get a lot of distrust, just like two people groups who have little in common can tolerate each other if they've historically had a good relationship.

Swedes and Danes didn't actually hate each other. It was the kings that wanted war and forced the population to kill their friends and relatives on the other side of the border. Often the people would refuse the kings command and have a local border peace (called "bondefred" in Swedish, means something like "peasant peace") even tho the countries was officially at war. This kind of shenanigans didn't usually go well with the king who would have these "traitors" tortured and/or burned at the stake.

 

[User29]

And the HRE is missing 2000 to 3000 minors (this is not an exaggeration, HRE pre 30-year war was a mess) and probably several hundred cultures, depending on how you define culture. Of course that's not possible or in any way sensible, but Ireland is one of the most remote corners of the map, relevant only for England, Scotland and of course Irish minors and I'd much rather the team spends effort on parts of the map that see more action.

good ol' 30 years war, who says decades of crippling conflict can't help.

 

[HerrStarr]

Welsh could be merged with British, but Irish wouldn't make much sense, so depends on whether we can also expand Irish culture and/or add a Gaelic highlands culture.

Are you suggesting that the in the next expansion we will see a more detailed ireland?

 

[bauke67]

It would take a lot of the fun out of playing an Irish nation in my opinion. I was already sad that they made breton french since now I can't bring them back to England. Without a celtic group it all, a celtic restoration campaign will become not impossible, but not as much fun. Granted, this is not from a historical perspective, although that too would require at least the Irish remain rebellious, some way or other.(culture converting englishmen also are not good in that respect of course)

 

[Oyubi]

And the HRE is missing 2000 to 3000 minors (this is not an exaggeration, HRE pre 30-year war was a mess) and probably several hundred cultures, depending on how you define culture. Of course that's not possible or in any way sensible, but Ireland is one of the most remote corners of the map, relevant only for England, Scotland and of course Irish minors and I'd much rather the team spends effort on parts of the map that see more action.

Ireland was actually close to on par with England at the time. It certainly wasn't a minor in population figures. Unfortunately, the fact they were remote meant the rest of europe simply looked the other way when we carried out massacre after massacre. Even after Cromwell, the Plantations, reprisals for rebellions and terrible mismanagement of resources they actually remained a fairly powerful potential nation in their own right by the end game. The potato famine in the vicky2 period was what really hammered the final nail in Ireland's coffin. In this time period it probably should have a few more provinces or a higher base development level to represent it hasn't been crushed yet.

I agree with the earler consensus on "British" being an emergent culture group rather than a naturally existing one. AFAIK its just a name based on the geographic location not a pre-existing idea of a culture group. It was really based on gaining power and wealth. I would say the obvious way would be to give the GB tag the parliament mechanic by default and you need to give representation to each other cultures for them to be accepted. Also GB has to retain a certain position in the world rankings e.g. top 5. Your own culture instantly flips into the British group then it takes 25 years for Wales, 50 for Scotland/England and 150 for Ireland/Highlanders to finally be won over. Actual culture conversions between the groups wouldn't be possible or should require massive investment since we saw how badly the plantations failed in reality.

Realistically, the reason Scotland was so much more loyal to the Union then Ireland was that they had massive power in parliament and it allowed them to make wedges of cash off of the Empire's trade. Ireland got overlooked and exploited so they hated it. It was political power, pragmatic gains and religion that drove the animosity more than whether you like playing football with a stick or with your feet.

That being said decentralising power from London should cause London to go into a full on hissy fit ... constant rebels for 20 years or more, loss of development, loss of its COT etc. Perhaps give the north of England a RR reduction to represent the lower desire to rebel when everything isn't flowing south anymore.

 

[Lamahorse]

The population of Ireland was about 8.5 million in 1841.

It is only about 6 million today including both the six counties and the Republic.

 

[Tacticus101]

There are some interesting recent genetic studies that show that the Anglo-Saxons only account for at most a third of English Genes, with other invaders like the Romans and Normans having almost negligible impact. The vast majority of English genetic makeup is the original Britons, the same Celtic people who inhabit the rest of the isles, the idea that they were somehow replaced by Saxon invaders is a myth that has been disproven. Genetically there should be only one group, British (or Celtic if you want), of which Brittany and all the cultures in the British isles are part of.

If you want to get more culturally specific, factoring in language, then English is probably separate, but so are the highlands and lowlands, North and south Wales, Devon and Cornwall, parts of Ireland and even North west England compared to the south east. In fact, the entire British isles should be a mismatch of cultures worthy of the HRE.

Also, Cornwall is not Welsh, it is more similar to England than wales.

 

[riadach]

Welsh could be merged with British, but Irish wouldn't make much sense, so depends on whether we can also expand Irish culture and/or add a Gaelic highlands culture.

Gaelic = Irish, Scottish, Hiberno-Norman?

 

[Wizzington]

Gaelic = Irish, Scottish, Hiberno-Norman?

Lowlands Scots were far closer to English than to Highlands Scots in EU4 era, customs and governance wise.

 

[riadach]

And the HRE is missing 2000 to 3000 minors (this is not an exaggeration, HRE pre 30-year war was a mess) and probably several hundred cultures, depending on how you define culture. Of course that's not possible or in any way sensible, but Ireland is one of the most remote corners of the map, relevant only for England, Scotland and of course Irish minors and I'd much rather the team spends effort on parts of the map that see more action.

The 15 provinces he mentions don't represent the actual number of polities in Ireland in this period so the comparison isn't sound. For England, Ireland was quite a knotty problem which subsumed much of her wealth and energy. Armies, some up to 20,000 strong, went to Ireland to subdue parts of the country only to come back in shreds. In the game, the problem is sorted after 30 years, yet all through the period of the game Ireland was a major headache for England, often with very serious constitutional consequences.

 

[spinoza013]

If you ever redraw Scotland use this

 

[riadach]

Lowlands Scots were far closer to English than to Highlands Scots in EU4 era, customs and governance wise.

I was unclear. I meant Highland-Scottish.

Up to the 17th century, the literary and administrative medium for both Highland Scotland and Ireland(including the "Old English" areas) was Early Modern Irish.

 

[Lamahorse]

I'd have a very soft spot for Hiberno-Norman to be called 'Old English' culture.

 

[riadach]

I'd have a very soft spot for Hiberno-Norman to be called 'Old English' culture.

It might have been close to what they called themselves, though perhaps Gaill, in opposition to Nua-Ghaill.

 

[Orctavius]

No, the Celts and the British culture groups should not be merged and England should

The real problem is the way EUIV handles culture. It usually makes the more sense to convert unaccepted cultures outside of your culture group than to covert other cultures within your group. Basically, the current current culture system lacks verisimilitude and should be redesigned.

 

[Vaximillian]

What I will never understand is why so many people on this forum seem to have such a hard-on for Isle of Man.

 

[Tacticus101]

What I will never understand is why so many people on this forum seem to have such a hard-on for Isle of Man.

It makes them feel Manly.....get it?

 

[Daema]

What I will never understand is why so many people on this forum seem to have such a hard-on for Isle of Man.

In terms of historical interest/importance, and size, it's low ranking, but it definitely ranks above some of the islands represented as provinces in game. Obviously there has to be a cut off point, but judging by what's in the game (looking at you, Bornholm) the Isle of Man should be included.

 

[Autonomous]

The population of Ireland was about 8.5 million in 1841.

It is only about 6 million today including both the six counties and the Republic.

True, but Ireland only really got that big in the last century of the game.

Since I have the numbers on hand, here are some population estimates for various regions of Europe during the EU period:

And as a proportion of the total:

All figures are approximate, obviously, and the territorial units listed refer to 1991 borders (because that's how the data is given for some reason).

If you ever redraw Scotland use this

That is... not how I'd do it. Clydesdale split in two? Western Clydesdale in Argyll? Eastern Clydesdale and Stirling conjoined with swathes of Grampian wasteland?

You want to split the central belt from the uplands for terrain/manoeuvering purposes, I think. Especially now that terrain is so key to development. I think my ideal setup would be something like this:

(which would be similar to a setup I've test-driven before)

Cut Fife down to just the peninsula and the ultra-fertile coastal strip in Gowrie and Mearns, separate out the Southern Uplands from Lothian and Ayrshire, so they make a buffer zone against England (as they were historically), restrict Aberdeenshire to the triangle of agriculturally viable land in the north-east, and split the Highlands into three provinces: one centred on Elgin (much more important than Inverness at this point) and including all of the upland east of the Great Glen, one for Argyll, and one for Darkest Caithness.

Terrain setup would be something like:

Lothian - Farmland
Fife - Farmland (there's no way in hell you can justify Lothian being farmland if Fife isn't; it's the agricultural heartland of the country)
Clydesdale - Plains
Aberdeenshire - Plains
Teviotdale - Hills (the area around the Tweed at least might also qualify as farmland, but a) three farmland provinces in Scotland is a bit cheeky, and b) it probably defeats the point of making it a buffer-zone)
Galloway - Hills
Moray - Highland
Ross/Argyll - Hills (so: the east coast should probably be heavily forested. Per temperature and rainfall data it's technically a rainforest zone, and the forest was definitely there in Roman times, but at some point between then and now the trees disappeared, and I can't seem to find any information on when that happened. I'm going to go out on a limb and peg it to the Clearances, when people wanted a lot of land to graze sheep on, but that's a wild guess).

That is nine provinces, though, including the Hebrides. I don't know if Pdox want to budget that much to Scotland it'd put it in the same region as Denmark, which is roughly equivalent in area and population). If I had to cut I'd probably merge Galloway/Teviotdale into a single Borders province (it feels weird having one province stretching from coast to coast here, but w/e), and fold two of the Highland provinces into each other. Ross and Argyll, if we're distinguishing those from Moray by terrain type.