Merging Celtic with British?

[Grand Historian]

I wanted to get the Forum's opinion on this before I suggested it in full, but what would you think about a possible merging of the Celtic Culture Group with the British? This occurred to me when Breton got shifted into the French Culture Group, and was actually a direct consequence of it, but I think this would be better for gameplay (and a few historical reasons). First, it would solve the problem of the English culture converting their problems away, and make Great Britain a far more useful union (especially since British has only 3 cultures, and one of them almost never shows). And, though English is linguistically (and culturally) not much like Welsh, Scottish or Irish, all three are relatively closer to each other, but since Scottish is in the British group they get penalized for holding Irish/Welsh provinces and vice-versa. Likewise, though the English never really managed to pacify the Irish (to be fair, they ferociously resisted anyone who invaded, they just had a particular dislike of the English due to the consistency of their invasions), throughout most of the period, past 1500, they had very little trouble with the Welsh and Cornish. And, on less abstract note, the only Celtic Cultures left are the ones on the British Isles.

So yes, the question is whether or not it would be good to merge what's leftover of the Celtic Culture Group with the British, and that's my reasoning behind (and for) it. I welcome all discussion, but I would ask that we be civil about it.

 

[jebates]

Seems inevitable what with Basque going Iberian and Breton going French. Doubling the number of provinces in Ireland should help ease the sting.

 

[FreeSoc]

I'd rather have Welsh and Cornish shifted into the British group, because like you noted they were generally accepted and peaceable within England -> UK for most of the period. (Also, given that Welsh and Cornish are as close to the original Brythonic language as exists in EUIV's time, it's a little bit odd to not have them in the British group.)

However, I'd like to see the creation of a Scottish Gaelic culture for the Highlands of Scotland (because Highland Scots and Lowland Scots in this period were linguistically and culturally very, very different regions, I'd say), with Gaelic Scottish and Irish remaining unaccepted in Great Britain because, well, they weren't accepted. See: the frequent Irish revolts, the Jacobites, Scotland's internal issues with the northern clans prior to 1603 and so on.

 

[Zhetone]

This sounds cool but wouldn't emulate the settling of the British in Ireland.
What I propose then is that if Cromwell's faction takes over, Britain somehow loses cultural union status so it is incentivized to convert smaller cultures.

 

[Grand Historian]

I'd rather have Welsh and Cornish shifted into the British group, because like you noted they were generally accepted and peaceable within England -> UK for most of the period.

However, I'd like to see the creation of a Scottish Gaelic culture for the Highlands of Scotland (because Highland Scots and Lowland Scots in this period were linguistically and culturally very, very different regions, I'd say), with Gaelic Scottish and Irish remaining unaccepted in Great Britain because, well, they weren't accepted. See: the frequent Irish revolts, the Jacobites, Scotland's internal issues with the northern clans prior to 1603 and so on.

True, I'm all for the creation of Scots and Cornish as cultures. Though, I still think they should be included in the British Culture Group (and Irish, for that matter), because I doubt they'd have revolted if Scotland formed (or forms, in game) Great Britain.

 

[Xinkc]

True, I'm all for the creation of Scots and Cornish as cultures. Though, I still think they should be included in the British Culture Group (and Irish, for that matter), because I doubt they'd have revolted if Scotland formed (or forms, in game) Great Britain.

I'm all for this and moving the rest of the Celtic group to the British one. Just like with Breton into the French group, I feel like it would ensure their cultures aren't ahistorically annihilated.

 

[myrsl0ken]

I really think that all movement of cultures are band-aid sollutions. So i think your suggestion is fine, but what we really need is a system for dynamically shifting or overlapping entire cultures between groups.

 

[ElCidtheConquer]

I think a lot of Irish men would take exception to your suggestion and I think they would be right. Come to think of it there might be a case for Ireland having hostile core creation costs. If Britain succeeds in conquering the country then fair enough - let them culture convert. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Maybe there could be a DHE related to the plantations though. Say give the option of having Irish as an accepted culture but with a massive jump in revolt risk for a long period of time, or do nothing. I've put all of 30 seconds thought into that one. I'm sure someone can come up with something much cooler. Someone else suggests more provinces for Ireland above. I see that suggested here from time to time but I just don't see the need for it.

 

[Parapluman]

I believe it was hinted that celtic would be removed as a group (just like basque was) and that welsh and irish would be added to the British culture group.

 

[Mauer]

I believe it was hinted that celtic would be removed as a group (just like basque was) and that welsh and irish would be added to the British culture group.

Along with a province overhaul to the british isles.

 

[Lamahorse]

Ireland is very badly represented in EU4. In 1444, aside from the Gaelic Irish, there was a formidable block of Normans who held much of the power across the island. These Normans adopted Irish manner, language and dress along side their relative autonomy from England. These Old English were distinguished from the later English settlers.

This Old English / Hiberno-Norman culture should be represented by new provinces who are vassals to the English crown. There should be a dozen provinces in Ireland. Ireland's population was relative to England quite high until the all too frequent die offs. It's estimated that two thirds of the population died in the period leading up to and following the Cromwellean plantation.

It should be a requirement to form Great Britain that the holder be King of England/Scotland and holding the Kingdom of Ireland + England/Scotland in personal union. England should get the option to form the Lordship of Ireland in personal union to England by decision. Great Britain was formed quite late in the games timeline.

We also need far more disasters for GB such as the War of the Three Kingdoms, Cromwell etc.

The Irish, Welsh and Highland Scots should be the same culture outside of Britain but the English should have the decision chain to get them accepted. Irish Nationalism wasn't really born until the French Revolution.

 

[Dakilla TM]

I think currently Welsh should be in the British group. Then, divide Scottish into Lowland and Highland Scots. Place Irish and Highland Scots in the Celtic group while Lowland Scots in the British group.

I think it's the best we can do at the moment. Oh and add one or two more provinces in Scotland. Bam, that's my solution

 

[Silverkey]

Personally I think the culture system as a whole needs a bit of a rework.

So far as I understand, right now cultures are accepted purely on their percentage of your total development.

I'd like to see that percentage change over time based on a number of factors. Here are some examples of things I'd like to affect culture acceptance:

How long the culture has been in your empire.
A culture that has existed in your empire for a long duration will be easier to accept. On the other hand, cultures that are new to your empire will likely take a long time to "break in".

If other cultures from the same culture group are already accepted.
If you play as Poland (west Slavic culture group) and conquer the Teutonic Order, you may eventually get Prussian (Germanic culture group) as an accepted culture. If you then start annexing Saxon territory, Saxon should more easily become an accepted culture because it belongs to the same culture group as Prussian which is already accepted within Poland.

Based on relations with other nations of the same culture and/or culture group.
Right now, if you play as Denmark and have a series of nasty wars with Sweden so you hate each other's guts culture will still be accepted easily because as we all know, Danes and Swedes are both Scandinavian and so they'll always easily accept each other. If reality if there have been constant wars between two very similar people groups you'll get a lot of distrust, just like two people groups who have little in common can tolerate each other if they've historically had a good relationship.


If these mechanics were implemented, then England could start with a historic connection to Wales (c. 1280) and Cornwall (c. 1337) making them have lower requirements for cultural acceptance, which once successful will in turn make Scottish and Irish cultures easier to accept as well because of the already accepted Celtic cultures.

On the other hand, if England then goes and fights a number of aggressive wars with the Irish OPMs, the Irish culture could end up having a high requirement for cultural acceptance even though Welsh and Cornish are accepted, because England has historically been an enemy to Irish culture nations. At the same time England might start seeing strain with the Welsh and Cornish cultures, because there is more cultural tension between the British and Celtic culture groups as a whole.

Anyways, that's my thoughts.

 

[grommile]

I think currently Welsh should be in the British group. Then, divide Scottish into Lowland and Highland Scots. Place Irish and Highland Scots in the Celtic group while Lowland Scots in the British group.

I think either culture conversion or cultural non-acceptance is a better way to represent the treatment of the Welsh by the Westminster crown between 1542 (passage of the Laws in Wales Acts) and 1967 (passage of the Welsh Language Act) than same-group amity is.

 

[MacDuffin]

I personally think Ireland should have more provinces, as well as possibly the highlands and the Isle of Mann.
Mann and the Highlands get their unique cultures (Manx and Highlander respectively) and be put into the Celtic group.
These peoples up until near the end of EUIV where rather unique/independent from English/Scottish governments and cultures and should be left as such, I think there should be more focus on making them different then making them the same.
What happened to Brittany makes sense, it became rather docile by 1444 and outside of language it was mostly "French", but it doesn't take much research to know the Celtic peoples of Ireland and Scotland where alive and fighting at this point.

On the fence about Wales, since it does have a Celtic culture, but was almost completely subservient to the English by 1444.

 

[Dakilla TM]

Ireland is very badly represented in EU4. In 1444, aside from the Gaelic Irish, there was a formidable block of Normans who held much of the power across the island. These Normans adopted Irish manner, language and dress along side their relative autonomy from England. These Old English were distinguished from the later English settlers.

This Old English / Hiberno-Norman culture should be represented by new provinces who are vassals to the English crown. There should be a dozen provinces in Ireland. Ireland's population was relative to England quite high until the all too frequent die offs. It's estimated that two thirds of the population died in the period leading up to and following the Cromwellean plantation.

It should be a requirement to form Great Britain that the holder be King of England/Scotland and holding the Kingdom of Ireland + England/Scotland in personal union. England should get the option to form the Lordship of Ireland in personal union to England by decision. Great Britain was formed quite late in the games timeline.

We also need far more disasters for GB such as the War of the Three Kingdoms, Cromwell etc.

The Irish, Welsh and Highland Scots should be the same culture outside of Britain but the English should have the decision chain to get them accepted. Irish Nationalism wasn't really born until the French Revolution.

Cromwell's Revolt is in the game. You can pick to be a monarchy or a republic in that event. Hugh O'Neal's revolt is also there too.

 

[MetaAdInfinitum]

This is a bit of a late post, but I'm really bothered by the loss of Brittany to the Celtic Culture group and though it was before I picked up the game myself, I also feel like merging the Highland Scots and Lowlanders into the Scottish British group was a bad move. I can kind of see reason to move Ireland and Wales into a larger British group at this point as the Scots are already there, but as an ardent Celtic player, it'd really bother me. Even when I'm not playing as the Celts, I cheer a little inside whenever Ireland or Wales form and the bloody English colonial Empire is slightly slowed for it.

Still, here are my two cents on a few points brought up here;

Ireland is very badly represented in EU4. In 1444, aside from the Gaelic Irish, there was a formidable block of Normans who held much of the power across the island. These Normans adopted Irish manner, language and dress along side their relative autonomy from England. These Old English were distinguished from the later English settlers.

This Old English / Hiberno-Norman culture should be represented by new provinces who are vassals to the English crown. There should be a dozen provinces in Ireland. Ireland's population was relative to England quite high until the all too frequent die offs. It's estimated that two thirds of the population died in the period leading up to and following the Cromwellean plantation.

I don't know if giving Ireland more provinces is really strictly necessary, but Isle of Mann would be interesting to see on the map as a Celtic province. As to the rest, I think you're asking for a level of detail which isn't necessarily present in a lot of EUIV. I'd consider Hiberno-Norman to be sufficiently assimilated that they were a part of the larger "Irish Culture". In the same way that Norse-Gaels eventually settled into Highland Scots. Hiberno-Norman lords and Irish lords often had territories in similar areas and had significant intermarriage; giving a full province to a Hiberno-Norman or a Gael would be pretty arbitrary since the two cultures could be very blurred at the level of nobility. Though giving Hiberno-Normans representation as an Idea, Mission or something minor in the background would be great. Maybe as a group English conquering Ireland can embrace (reducing revolt chances but reducing revenue) or reject and perhaps as the group behind an Irish mission/decision or event to encourage trading or as an idea to improve relations with or lower revolt risk with British Cultures. But yeah; I'd call Hiberno-Normans a part of larger Irish Gaelic history and culture.

What happened to Brittany makes sense, it became rather docile by 1444 and outside of language it was mostly "French", but it doesn't take much research to know the Celtic peoples of Ireland and Scotland where alive and fighting at this point.

That's not really the case at all. Descartes and Montagne both point them out as cultural distinct (largely as being somewhat backwards to their eyes, but whatever). Calling them politically docile is unfair as they were a major front of the 100 years war only shortly before then and retained political independence until a Personal Union with the French Monarchy. The radical reforms of the French revolution (coming at the end of the game) also gave birth to the largest reactionary movement in Vandée. This is largely characterized as a Catholic Royalist uprising but a significant number of the members were Bretons who were dissatisfied with a loss of independence and privileges which were left over from the Feudal period where they were theoretically under personal union rather than a part of a unified French state. The fact that they weren't constantly in a state of rebellion has more to do with the French Monarchy being fairly laissez-faire culturally while the English were more active in attempt to assimilate the Gaels and Welsh. Once that changed with the revolution, you did see a major revolt.

I'm really disappointed in the move to lessen Celtic cultures as is; I used to run Ireland-Welsh-Breton (and Highland Scots in some mods) colonizing union games and I don't know how feasible it is now. But then I'd also like to see Catalan and Occitan made into a cultural group rather than being Spanish and French respectively.

Slightly off topic but does anyone know how a Breton CKII game would convert? I conquered largely Celtic provinces, and have left Welsh and Irish culture mostly as is, would half my provinces suddenly split to French culture?

 

[Mauer]

Slightly off topic but does anyone know how a Breton CKII game would convert? I conquered largely Celtic provinces, and have left Welsh and Irish culture mostly as is, would half my provinces suddenly split to French culture?

Yes. Same thing happens with Pommeranian becoming a german subculture despite whatever happened in your CK2 game.

 

[Lamahorse]

I don't know if giving Ireland more provinces is really strictly necessary, but Isle of Mann would be interesting to see on the map as a Celtic province. As to the rest, I think you're asking for a level of detail which isn't necessarily present in a lot of EUIV. I'd consider Hiberno-Norman to be sufficiently assimilated that they were a part of the larger "Irish Culture". In the same way that Norse-Gaels eventually settled into Highland Scots. Hiberno-Norman lords and Irish lords often had territories in similar areas and had significant intermarriage; giving a full province to a Hiberno-Norman or a Gael would be pretty arbitrary since the two cultures could be very blurred at the level of nobility. Though giving Hiberno-Normans representation as an Idea, Mission or something minor in the background would be great. Maybe as a group English conquering Ireland can embrace (reducing revolt chances but reducing revenue) or reject and perhaps as the group behind an Irish mission/decision or event to encourage trading or as an idea to improve relations with or lower revolt risk with British Cultures. But yeah; I'd call Hiberno-Normans a part of larger Irish Gaelic history and culture.

Population wise, Ireland has always had a larger population than Scotland. At many points, the Irish people swelled only to be killed off by the rather frequent disasters and famines that befell the island. Before the Irish Confederate wars and the Cromwellean Invasion; the population of Ireland was reckoned to have almost reached a parity with England. It's estimated that at least half the population died or starved between 1640 and 1650.

Currently, the provincial make up of Ireland just doesn't make sense. There was hardly an independent King of Leinster, Munster, Connacht or Ulster. Those provinces consisted of loose alliances between Gaelic Lords and Anglo-Norman Earls. Some of these Anglo-Norman (Old English) lords were extremely powerful and up until Tudor times, they were largely autonomous. They married and integrated into Irish affairs. They even adopted the Irish custom of cattle raiding.

In the realms of alternative history, if Ireland was to centralise at any point; it would more likely to have been at the hands of an Anglo-Norman lord than a native Irish King. Or at the hands of an Irish Lord that was savvy enough to adopt to English custom and tactics (Hugh "Red" O'Neill).

Culturally, Irish doesn't belong in the British culture group. England tried on many occasions to 'culture convert' Ireland. They only succeeded in one province (Ulster) but that place is more Scottish influenced than English.

 

[MetaAdInfinitum]

Population wise, Ireland has always had a larger population than Scotland. At many points, the Irish people swelled only to be killed off by the rather frequent disasters and famines that befell the island. Before the Irish Confederate wars and the Cromwellean Invasion; the population of Ireland was reckoned to have almost reached a parity with England. It's estimated that at least half the population died or starved between 1640 and 1650.

And all Scotland has to represent the complicated and intricate relationship between Highlanders and Lowlanders is an event giving you free troops against the English. The Irish did have a unique Feudal-Tribal system but so did many groups which have been drastically simplified. A few more unique national ideas might be interesting but I don't expect them to go into the minutae of Irish feudal politics any more than every detail of Manchurian or Italian politics.

Currently, the provincial make up of Ireland just doesn't make sense. There was hardly an independent King of Leinster, Munster, Connacht or Ulster. Those provinces consisted of loose alliances between Gaelic Lords and Anglo-Norman Earls. Some of these Anglo-Norman (Old English) lords were extremely powerful and up until Tudor times, they were largely autonomous. They married and integrated into Irish affairs. They even adopted the Irish custom of cattle raiding.

Not entirely true. There were most definitely Kings of Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster, of varying degrees of independence. The amount of control exercised by this Kings was certainly less than those more centralized Monarchies and Princes in Continental Europe at the time, but as stated above I don't expect that level of detail. Otherwise, it'd almost be worth it to add a few centuries onto CKII with a mod.

Wikipedia gives me a useful list of Kings here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Connacht
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Leinster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Ulster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Connacht

There were certainly other petty Kingdoms, but I think the representation as 4 provinces is at least understandable. Again; there are more detailed mods out there and if Paradox added new provinces for Ireland, I wouldn't complain at all but I think what we have with this is pretty fair.

Certainly these weren't the centralized provinces we now know with clear boundries that EU draws for us, but nowhere in the world was like that until (arguably) the treaty of Westphalia, hardly at the outset of things.

In the realms of alternative history, if Ireland was to centralise at any point; it would more likely to have been at the hands of an Anglo-Norman lord than a native Irish King. Or at the hands of an Irish Lord that was savvy enough to adopt to English custom and tactics (Hugh "Red" O'Neill).

Culturally, Irish doesn't belong in the British culture group. England tried on many occasions to 'culture convert' Ireland. They only succeeded in one province (Ulster) but that place is more Scottish influenced than English.

The first count is debatable since EU and Paradox as a whole has always meant ridiculous history (Iroquois stomping Europe, Manchuria ignoring the Ming and colonizing America, etc) and further, my argument is that by the start point of EU, the line between Gaelic and Hiberno-Norman Lord was very, very blurred.

To the Second; I agree. I'm really annoyed at the loss of Breton as a Celtic culture. Most of my EU and CK play-throughs are Celtic games. That said, if Brittany is French and the entirety of Scotland is British, then it is no longer strictly a linguistic matter. In that sense, the Western Irish resemble the Highland Scots and the Hiberno-Normans aren't unlike the Lowlanders eligible to be recognized more generally as "British". Personally, I don't like it but that's what MEIOU and Taxes is for. Apparently they even have Norse-Gaels there.

If Ireland has to be grouped with someone, it should be the Highland Scots who are currently listed a British Culture. I would be really annoyed about this but I can understand why it would happen. If the Celts were given their actual historic boundaries (even if only Highlander Scots and Lower Bretons received the culture mark, though I'd be happy to argue in depth that Lowland Scottish and Upper Breton national identity as far back as the 14th century rested significantly on their Celtic heritage)

Yes. Same thing happens with Pommeranian becoming a german subculture despite whatever happened in your CK2 game.

That's unfortunate, though I suppose there might be a work around if I make all of my Breton provinces Welsh since the two cultures merging wouldn't be particularly out of character considering the way the timeline went. It's still a change I kind of mourn though.

Edit, responding to a couple of early points:

True, I'm all for the creation of Scots and Cornish as cultures. Though, I still think they should be included in the British Culture Group (and Irish, for that matter), because I doubt they'd have revolted if Scotland formed (or forms, in game) Great Britain.

Actually, Highland-Lowland animosity was definitely a thing. John of Islay and James III of Scotland marks a serious low point in this. If Scotland anglicized during the formation of Britain, then the Highlanders would definitely have been agitated. If they didn't, then the English would have been agitated and they would have broken their union with the Stewards far earlier, likely.

On the fence about Wales, since it does have a Celtic culture, but was almost completely subservient to the English by 1444.

Wales didn't have many open rebellions, in part due to the War of the Roses, where they believed the Tudors represented British ascendancy but they were slow to adapt to English institutions and certainly could have been made to rebel in different circumstances. Being an (initially) accepted Culture by the English does a decent job representing this.