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veji2

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Hello there, I have been playing the latest HIP and CK2 patch for a while now, and I notice something that might be a feature of every game but that keeps bothering me : The muslims in north Africa, particularly Tunisia but also the Baleares and eastern Spain, always get hammered by the Christians of the Kingdom of Italy and Amalfi republic, and this basically happens through the merchant republics initiating wars for city control, winning them, winning a province, and by spillover effect you eventually get christians from Algeria to Cyrenaica.

I have played 4 games and it happened every time. I usually star in 1054 in southern France and eventually get into crusading all the way to the promised land, never really venture in that area so I don't think I impacted this.

Am I the only one seeing this ? Could that also be a consequence of more provinces and therefore holdings in Europe in the SWMH map meaning that after a 100 years or so the Christians are juste much more powerful than the muslims ?

Thanks for the feedback.
 

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Am I the only one seeing this ? Could that also be a consequence of more provinces and therefore holdings in Europe in the SWMH map meaning that after a 100 years or so the Christians are juste much more powerful than the muslims ?

Thanks for the feedback.

This at least is also my suspicion. The better availability of historical sources for Medieval Europe seems to produce a certain bias regarding the amout of provinces / holdings stacked into the European kingdoms compared to the Muslim world, especially North Africa.
 

veji2

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Yeah, I bought CK2 just recently and I get the impression that at some point, number of holdings makes the difference, and North Africa is really a desert in that regard : There are as many holdings in southern Italy as in the whole of North Africa more or less.
 

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In the next version of SWMH, the Europe vs. non-Europe balance should improve a bit, as @Ese Khan has done a revamp of starting tech values in Europe (which were too high relative to most of the rest of the world in 1066).
 

veji2

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I am playing another game with The Byzantine empire post Mantzikert, starting just when Alexios Comnenos takes power... having fun and all but I noticed again how Tunisia quickly gets eaten alive by the Empire/Italy via the merchant republics : In the most recent case what happens is that Pisa dows the weakish emirates there to get control of the city holding in Tunis and from then on it snowballs.

It really is problematic because basically it creates a very dangerous spillover effect for the muslims weakening the Maghreb more and more. The problem is twofold I think :
- There are not enough holdings in the Maghreb compared to the rest of the map, so the muslims there are weak and easy picking. The map should either have more counties or the counties in north africa should have more holdings. The problem is particularly noticeable for coastal counties where population density was not low.
- Merchant republics might need to be reined in in their ability to dow for cities, at least against infidels. Sure Venice and Genoa carved away the byzantine empire, but not so muslim lands where they actually established pretty solid trade practices without becoming jingoistic.
- Another issue might be that christians setting foot in north africa should quickly trigger holy wars so that that first stronghold is heavily contested. It really feels like the Italian merchants, backed up by the kingdom of Italy/ empire pick up the locals piecemeal.
- Lastly this pose the problem of the excessively well integrated kingdom of italy/empire while the different republics in it should really mostly act independently and unsupported. It really makes me want to toy with the idea of finding a way for them (Genoa and Pisa mainly) to be like Venice independent.
 

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I think the problem here is very existence of HRE. Let´s say there are two different scenarios:
1. Pisa (or any other country that has access to Africa, including feudal lords in Sardinia and so on, but let´s use Pisa as an example) is independent. It attacks Muslims, fails multiple times, but eventually gains the territory. They now need to hold and protect it, as they will come under attack of Muslims who will then have a chance to reconquer their territory. The whole process is natural and in my opinion pretty balanced (Christians have it harder to conquer territory from Muslims and then Muslims have it harder to conquer territory from Christians).
2. Pisa is part of HRE. It takes one county in Africa and suddenly emperor goes full...well, Emperor, and goes on the Great Crusade with tens of thousands of troops that take multiple duchies. Muslims can´t do anything to reconquer it, because of those tens of thousands of imperial troops from Europe that charge in every time to protect that bit of land. HRE´s existence even prevents them from attacking, because AI is not thinking about attacking country with 5k troops, but rather empire with 30k or more.
 

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I think the problem here is very existence of HRE. Let´s say there are two different scenarios:
1. Pisa (or any other country that has access to Africa, including feudal lords in Sardinia and so on, but let´s use Pisa as an example) is independent. It attacks Muslims, fails multiple times, but eventually gains the territory. They now need to hold and protect it, as they will come under attack of Muslims who will then have a chance to reconquer their territory. The whole process is natural and in my opinion pretty balanced (Christians have it harder to conquer territory from Muslims and then Muslims have it harder to conquer territory from Christians).
2. Pisa is part of HRE. It takes one county in Africa and suddenly emperor goes full...well, Emperor, and goes on the Great Crusade with tens of thousands of troops that take multiple duchies. Muslims can´t do anything to reconquer it, because of those tens of thousands of imperial troops from Europe that charge in every time to protect that bit of land. HRE´s existence even prevents them from attacking, because AI is not thinking about attacking country with 5k troops, but rather empire with 30k or more.
There's also a consequence of a partial resolution- if you weaken the HRE to the point where it would otherwise force vassals to fend for themselves, they can't actually fend for themselves. Imagine being a vassal with a 20k army losing terrritory because your liege has a 5k army and can't defend you. Players can join their liege's wars. The AI cannot. Modding it so that the AI can is, unfortunately, impossible at the moment.
 

DorlasAnther

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There's also a consequence of a partial resolution- if you weaken the HRE to the point where it would otherwise force vassals to fend for themselves, they can't actually fend for themselves. Imagine being a vassal with a 20k army losing terrritory because your liege has a 5k army and can't defend you. Players can join their liege's wars. The AI cannot. Modding it so that the AI can is, unfortunately, impossible at the moment.
Or just dissolve HRE. Unlike Persia or ERE, there is no way for it to lose so much territory to be dissolved (the only time it ceased to exist in my games was when I caused it). So, if they have minimal crown authority and over 90% decay (or maybe even over 80%...could be tied to CA, the higher you have, the more decay can HRE withstand), there should be an event that dissolves it.
 

Toa Kraka

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Or just dissolve HRE. Unlike Persia or ERE, there is no way for it to lose so much territory to be dissolved (the only time it ceased to exist in my games was when I caused it). So, if they have minimal crown authority and over 90% decay (or maybe even over 80%...could be tied to CA, the higher you have, the more decay can HRE withstand), there should be an event that dissolves it.
See also this somewhat-similar idea.
What if Stability was reintroduced to CK and functioned for feudal and republican governments somewhat like Decadence does iqta governments?

Though it might sound outright identical, the causes are essentially inverted; War and other stuff causing strife and instability will push it down while being at peace for a long time and maintaining the status quo will allow it to recover. In keeping with the "inversed decadence" theme, it might be a stat from 0-100 where higher is better. War (sieges, looting, casualties and the general state of war itself) would be the primary contributor, but law changes, some events and succession would all be gnawing at it. The [preferably moddable] effects could, for example, work as follows:

At..

100-95: Vassals cannot declare war outside of faction-wars against their liege (and potentially ask their liege for permission to declare wars outside the realm).


90-80: Vassals can declare war freely if their liege is preoccupied with war, imprisoned or otherwise made incapable. Their liege may, however, enforce realm peace once capable again (or without delay if he is simply at war).


79-50: Vassals can declare war freely and their liege can only enforce peace under limited conditions I haven't thought -that- much about (good relations, no powerful factions, unanimous council approval, etc.).


49-20: This is where it gets FUN!
Very bad events (I was mostly imagining lost favorites from CK1) such as declarations of independence, zealous firebrands spreading heresy, large separatist rebellions and plagues will occur at a scaled frequency and severity depending on just how low the RP-score is (from 49-1).

Accepting the immediate consequences instead of fighting them will instantly recover some RP for the now hopefully concerned player, whereas fighting them may potentially worsen things at an exponential rate.


19-1: Oh, dear!
All top level titles will be destroyed at succession, effectively making the top vassals independent, and ambitious neighbours (particularly pagans) may get events to invade a ducal title with extra troops much like viking and adventurer invasions. It may be time to give it a rest at this point!


0: "Game Over" may not be the right term, but at 0 your top titles all disintegrate immediately and the realm is undone without any claims for reconquest of your now ex-vassals. This symbolizes total chaos and the complete erosion of royal authority to the point where it simply can't be called upon anymore; the realm reverts back to mere idea rather than an actual title to fight over.


This system would mean that an invasion, a drawn-out civil war against a faction or letting those pesky nomads raid your dukes for too long could very well be that one little spark which brings total calamity upon your realm if you aren't careful.

An enforced peace can be defied at the cost of being branded traitorous or maybe immediate war with liege, so your hands won't magically be tied once the demand for an armistice arrives.

---

As an example of how much fun this could be I came up with the tale of Ædelwurst IX "The Unyielding" of England:

An ongoing Viking invasion of England launched by Ingbert the Hairy has eroded the stability of the realm and the duke of Mercia siezes this opportunity to finally squash that eyesore of a neighbour called Wessex.

Their war goes on for a while until Ædelwurst, King of all England, tells them to quit messing around as soon as Ingbert has been repelled.

The duke of Mercia has no intention at all to listen to his foolish (and now significantly weakened) liege's demands, and so he rises up in arms against the King while continuing his war on Wessex.

Wessex which was already nearing defeat falls quickly at this point and a long, bloody war between Mercia and the high king ensues.

After over two whole decades of unending violence, first against the heathen Norsemen and then in this horrible civil war, the local landholders in occupied Dumnonia organize for a revolt against their foreign overlords while heretical preachers have started spreading a new, pacifistic creed all over the kingdom.

The king finally manages to beat his scoundrel of a vassal into submission, but the damage is done and the country lies in disarray. (RP has dropped to critical levels!)

Once a few too many heretical preachers have lost their heads, the Britons of Dumnonia lose their collective patience and finally declare independence.

Their stubborn king refuses to give in despite the sorry state of the realm and his now almost depleted levies and so another age of bloodshed follows in the footsteps of the former.


The war goes on for another five years (Dumnonia is small after all, regardless of how weakened the English kingdom may be), before the Britons finally manage to secure their independence under their [petty] king Bryffyrwffrwwrw, a local noble.

But they didn't win decisively; The high king of England, Ædelwurst IXX, had just foolishly gone off to die in glorious battle and, tired of the idiot's ceaseless warmongering (really low RP), all nobles of the realm simply agreed to declare England a dead realm upon succession for just ONE moment of peace.

His heir, Ædelwurst XX, who has only the weakened levy of the [formerly] royal duchy and a small band of mercenaries to draw upon (also being -way- smarter than his arrogant brother) simply makes peace with the now far-off Dumnonians.

In a mere forty years, England has been dissolved and heresy is widespread in the lands of the Angles and Saxons.

---

"The green reed which bends in the wind is stronger than the mighty oak which breaks in a storm." - Confucius

I hope I'm not the only one who likes the idea of this. Thoughts?
 

veji2

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To me the key issue is that Merchant republic are way too aggresive. They shouldn't try to conquer provinces but rather focus on their trade posts. I could imagine events allowing them to inherit a city in a county where they are well established, within one of their trade zones, for example, but now they get CBs too easily to go on the offensive and nab some actual territory. Their CBs should only give them the right to replace other trade posts with theirs for example, not actually take the other holdings.
 

veji2

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The only solution I have found, was to at least make the kingdom of italy independent of the HRE so that the blob is less strong, and then give money to the muslims they are are at war with. By chance in my last game as the Byzantine the big blob in Maghreb declared independance as the kingdom of Ifriqya and was then reconquered in a holy war by the muslims I had dutifully supported, but still this sort of of takes away a big aspect of the fun.
 

Battlex

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Can’t you just turn off the quick expansion CB’s for merchant republics in game rules.
I’ll admit I played HIP pre-jade dragon, but when I allowed Quick Expansions I’d see Pisa (but more often Norman sicily’ quickly expand into the Maghreb
 

veji2

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I still feel there is a particular "number of holdings" problem in the Maghreb and in tripolitana/cyrenaica. It becomes really easy for a political entity representing a few european counties easily counting 20 holdings or so to trample over an area like Tunisia or Libya with their pitiful number of holdings... The issue is double : in Tunisia and in the Maghreb there should be more holdings overall to better represent the fact that there were solid states at numerous moments of the middle ages there. Regarding Libya one could argue rather that desert should be a lot less forgiving to european troops and that basically they should have a very hard time campaigning there and keeping control.
 

Battlex

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I still feel there is a particular "number of holdings" problem in the Maghreb and in tripolitana/cyrenaica. It becomes really easy for a political entity representing a few european counties easily counting 20 holdings or so to trample over an area like Tunisia or Libya with their pitiful number of holdings... The issue is double : in Tunisia and in the Maghreb there should be more holdings overall to better represent the fact that there were solid states at numerous moments of the middle ages there. Regarding Libya one could argue rather that desert should be a lot less forgiving to european troops and that basically they should have a very hard time campaigning there and keeping control.
Maybe keep the number of holdings the same, to represent how little development could be done. But then make them very wealthy due to the slave trade routes maybe.
 

veji2

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It's complicated really, i don't really have a solution, the Normans did invade and take over coastal Tunisia for a little while, so I don't mean this should be impossible, but rather that the inevitable snowball effect should be prevented. That's the issue, the way once the foothold is there it becomes unavoidable or quasi...
 

Ese Khan

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FYI, in the next major HIP release (that is, save-incompatible update), the Muslim world including North Africa will generally have more holdings built since 867, for both historical and balance reasons. A lot of unbuilt holdings in the Muslim world appear in 10th-century geographical works anyways.
 

Battlex

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Apr 4, 2017
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FYI, in the next major HIP release (that is, save-incompatible update), the Muslim world including North Africa will generally have more holdings built since 867, for both historical and balance reasons. A lot of unbuilt holdings in the Muslim world appear in 10th-century geographical works anyways.
As a developer I'm sure your time is busy but when is the next patch set to release