Merchant Guilds vs Mega Corp.

[-Marauder-]

So, with Paragons Merchant Guilds got a much needed buff, now giving +0.4 Trade Value per Level of the Council position. This means that for the first time ever, Clerks might actually be a decent jobs. With Mercantile you can get up to 9 Trade Value on your Clerks. Add Thrifty to the mix, and all the % increases. And you're looking at some pretty high output for Clerks, here. 9 + 2 Amenities, versus 12 + 3 for Merchants. A Worker job versus a Ruler job.

Now on the other hand, Mega Corps got, virtually nothing. You could argue that they get some minor buffs to Branch Offices. But while Branch Offices don't use jobs, their trade value is not affected by a great many other modifiers, and it doesn't get filtered through Trade Policies either.


It feels a bit strange that going for a trade build kind of means going for a non Mega Corp now.

 

[Twogs]

So, with Paragons Merchant Guilds got a much needed buff, now giving +0.4 Trade Value per Level of the Council position. This means that for the first time ever, Clerks might actually be a decent jobs. With Mercantile you can get up to 9 Trade Value on your Clerks. Add Thrifty to the mix, and all the % increases. And you're looking at some pretty high output for Clerks, here. 9 + 2 Amenities, versus 12 + 3 for Merchants. A Worker job versus a Ruler job.

Now on the other hand, Mega Corps got, virtually nothing. You could argue that they get some minor buffs to Branch Offices. But while Branch Offices don't use jobs, their trade value is not affected by a great many other modifiers, and it doesn't get filtered through Trade Policies either.


It feels a bit strange that going for a trade build kind of means going for a non Mega Corp now.

You can reach higher than 9, just being oligarchy would allow up to 9.8 already


Also what do you mean by nothing? They get they council positions, too. One of them makes Entertainers pretty trade-strong

 

[HFY]

Also what do you mean by nothing? They get they council positions, too. One of them makes Entertainers pretty trade-strong

Wish there were a way to get +TV on Duelists for some kind of insane bloodsport civilization, with bonus fleet cap from the bloodsport.

 

[Twogs]

Wish there were a way to get +TV on Duelists for some kind of insane bloodsport civilization, with bonus fleet cap from the bloodsport.

Guess the issue here is that Duelists are civic specific. So way to rare to begin with to have some thing like this.

But at least we get the Tradetertainers

 

[-Marauder-]

You can reach higher than 9, just being oligarchy would allow up to 9.8 already


Also what do you mean by nothing? They get they council positions, too. One of them makes Entertainers pretty trade-strong

That only makes the issue worse, not better.

And no, they don't get a Council Position that gives them +0.4 trade value per level per pop. There's also a very big difference between Entertainers and Clerks. Clerks are a Worker job, Clerks come en masse and easy all on their own. Entertainers even at level 10 buff are still weaker than Clerks, they need buildings, etc. Entertainers are a stopgap solution for when you really need amenities, not a desirable job otherwise.

 

[DeanTheDull]

So, with Paragons Merchant Guilds got a much needed buff, now giving +0.4 Trade Value per Level of the Council position. This means that for the first time ever, Clerks might actually be a decent jobs. With Mercantile you can get up to 9 Trade Value on your Clerks. Add Thrifty to the mix, and all the % increases. And you're looking at some pretty high output for Clerks, here. 9 + 2 Amenities, versus 12 + 3 for Merchants. A Worker job versus a Ruler job.

Now on the other hand, Mega Corps got, virtually nothing. You could argue that they get some minor buffs to Branch Offices. But while Branch Offices don't use jobs, their trade value is not affected by a great many other modifiers, and it doesn't get filtered through Trade Policies either.


It feels a bit strange that going for a trade build kind of means going for a non Mega Corp now.

This depends on how the new trade pact efficiency modifier works. I can't check for various reasons, but I'm fairly sure MegaCorps got a massive advantage if it works the way I think it does / if it's working correctly.


The way a Commercial Pact normally works is 10% of the other empire's TV value to you, which your policies then translate into energy/CG/unity. In the 00_defines.txt file, this is noted in the COMMERCIAL_PACT_VALUE_MULT = 0.1

In Paragons, a new variable was added- commercial_pact_mult - which corresponds to the new "Commercial Pact Efficiency" modifier that pops up in a few places, including the Megacorp authority. Megacorp authority is text-described as having +20% commercial pact efficiency, and has commercial_pact_mult = 0.20.

I believe- but cannot verify as the common folder doesn't actually put the values side-by-side- that these values are intended to be additive, not multiplicative, such that a MegaCorp gets 30% of the trade value of the other empires (10% base + 20%), not 12% (10% base x 1.20).


If so, this makes MegaCorps considerably better a trade builds than the the Merchant Guilds, because between the 30% trade deal itself and the branch offices converting 50% of TV converted into energy, the MegaCorp has a base 80% TV-value trade-capture of any clerk on a planet with a branch office.

And I do say base, because for the same degree of civic investment as Merchant Guilds, Megacorps with the Free Trader civic get +10% Branch Office value and 2% Trade Value efficiency per councilor-governor level. Meaning that the a level 10 Free Trade MegaCorp is getting 50% trade value efficiency- or 50% of the clerk's produced trade- and 60% of planetary trade value, for 110% of the mega-clerk's production.


Further, you can stack another 20-50% trade value efficiency through the 'Open Markets' agenda from the Mercantile tree. Anyone with Mercantile can do this, but the benefit isn't to the person producing mountains of trade value, but to the person receiving it- such as a MegaCorp with commercial pacts with Merchant Guild civic empires that they released as vassals/imposed with ideology wars.


Put these together, and while a level 10 Merchant Guild can get 100% of the impressive TV of their own clerk production at the cost of a civic and a pop, a level 10 Free Trader MegaCorp could be reaping in 160% for the cost of a civic, agenda, and branch office, but no pops.

 

[RoverStorm]

A buff to the trade value that Merchant Guilds get is "technically" an indirect buff to Megacorps, because when a Megacorp releases a subject the subject will always have Oligarchy and Merchant Guilds. Less so for Criminal Syndicates, since Crime Syndicates cannot sign Commercial Pacts and therefore can only benefit from the trade of others if they are in a Trade Federation, which may require some setup but you can get it such that subjects auto-join.

This is important because "Vassal swarm" is definitely the way to go with Megacorps. It negates most of the consequences of the increased empire size penalty, allows you to install branch offices on "your" planets, and since commercial pacts create free wealth from the same territory it effectively multiplies total resources "under your command" created. The only real downside is you cannot integrate vassals as a Megacorp, so if something goes wrong with one of them and you wish to integrate and "fix" it before re-releasing, either try to get them to turn into a protectorate or switch off megacorp for 20 years and integrate them in between. Or get a mod that lets you always integrate subjects, or perhaps one that lets you control their buildings.


Other things megacorps got that are directly trade related:

Trade Post Civic suddenly has a niche use as it's councilor gives +0.5 Trade per level on all trade post. At level 10 that is 2.5 "Offworld Trading Companies" installed for free on every Starbase, without taking up building slots. This means a Starbase built for trade can provide 42 trade as well as 3 extra starbase building slots for much more important things. If for some reason you don't need naval cap (getting all your naval cap from the Galactic Wonder and Branch Offices perhaps?), you could go full eco on your starbases.
And yes, if you want the math:

Spoiler

Full anchorage starbase: 36 Naval Cap
6 Stronghold buildings (2 if upgraded, requires strategic goods) gives 6 soldiers: 36 naval cap (assuming a VERY early green tech is researched)
Full trade starbase with max councilor: 42 Trade
2 commercial zones (1 if upgraded, needs strategic goods) and 6 pops (the same 6 who would have been soldiers) as 2 merchants and 2 clerks: 44 trade, but affected by job output modifiers (I think? They did change that right?).
Things to keep in mind: those 2 merchants will likely cut into profits with their greedy 2 CG for job upkeep (can't be lowered by pop upkeep modifiers either), on top of their Ruler Stratum CG demands. Trade Hubs also turn the starport into a trade collecting magnet for other deposits, which an anchorage and planet with commercial zones do not. Also a planet with strongholds is a very tough cookie to crack, while a starbase for either trade or anchorages is always made of paper.
My conclusion: it's situational, which means it's a well designed modifier. I may actually find use for this civic now, especially around the mid-game.

Indentured Assets councilor gives, oh you know, 0.2 trade per level on every single enslaved pop. Sorry I legitimately just discovered this, does this give my livestock potentially 2 trade? Every single worker no matter where is half the trade of a clerk? Even more trade per clerk? This sounds incredible...

Free Traders councilor gives up to another +20% Commercial Pact Efficiency, which yes I cover the results below. If you ask me this modifier is pretty weak and should in addition do something that gives either trade from certain jobs per level or another direct trade buff. If I was in charge, I'd give it per level +0.2% empire trade per branch office.

Criminal Syndicate is now going to be slightly better with a little more branch office value per level (up to 2.5) EDIT: I forgot to mention this is per criminal on a world with your branch office. It's not a lot, I think a "max crime world" has at best 4 with a criminal underworld, 3 with an upgraded underworld (you lose 1 criminal but gain another 15 crime), and 5 from "deal with crime lords" which the AI rarely seems to do. So 8 or 9 at best. A criminal inherently gives 7.5 "trade value" to the branch office owner, but takes 5 away due to reducing the planet's trade by 5 (which can be a double-punch since that trade may have been getting massively multiplied by the target empire's trade modifiers. Imagine if they had +100% trade. You lose 10 but gained 7.5, which is a net loss only compensated by being at high crime.) This gives each criminal another 2.5 at max level councilor, bringing it to a total of 10. You can still be worse-off than a normal megacorp if the target is a massive fan of stacking trade bonuses, but it does make it even stronger on badely under-developed frontier planets that have poor enforcement to begin with.

Corporate Hedonism grants about 0.8 trade, per level, per entertainer. Not entirely certain this is useful, especially because this civic super-buffs servants which gives even more of a reason to rely on Robo-Maids instead of paying for entertainers.



COMMERCIAL PACTS:
Ok, so I entered a game where I was not a Megacorp and checked a potential Commercial Pact offer.
37.55 Energy, 18.77 Unity for me (Marketplace of Ideas).
1104.31 Energy, 552.15 CG for partner (Consumer benefits).
Megacorp gets +20% commercial pact efficiency just for existing, so I'm reforming to megacorp without unpausing...
45.06 energy, 22.53 Unity for me.
1325.18 energy, 662.59 CG for partner

First off:

So unfortunately +20% Commercial Pact Efficiency is multiplicative with the original "10% of trade".

However, did you notice something?

Commercial Pact Efficiency goes both ways. Your partner is also benefiting from a +20% bonus. Also don't worry about the slight discrepency in the value I am giving them, it is either a rounding error or some job switching when I changed to megacorp causing a slight trade change.

 

[-Marauder-]

I literally mentioned that Mega Corps do benefit from it passively, but the problem is that it's nowhere near as good as getting it directly, because trade policies don't apply to it. So you're stuck with Energy Credits.

42 from Trade Posts is, a bad joke. That's about 3 Clerks with 9 TV + Thrifty. And you're not going to have any meaningful numbers of these starbases. And this is before we stack the absurd numbers of trade modifiers on top of this. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/13emkzy This is a current day trade world. And as you can see, it isn't even close to being filled or completely optimized. The 2 CG for Merchants isn't an issue, depending on your trade stance they either generate insane amounts of unity or more than pay their own upkeep and then some.

Indentured Assets does not work the way you think it does. It applies only to slaves. And slaves have diminished base trade value to begin with. If anything it somewhat "fixes" that. The most important modifiers such as Thrifty also do not apply to it, as it's not "trade from jobs".

The Commercial Pact TV as you yourself say is incredibly deceptive, and not really worth it.

As for entertainers. The 0.8 sounds high. The problem is, you DON'T want entertainers. They're not a job you'd ever spam or really mass produce. They're a stopgap solution to a severe lack of amenities and among the first jobs to cut once amenities have recovered.

 

[Twogs]

That only makes the issue worse, not better.

And no, they don't get a Council Position that gives them +0.4 trade value per level per pop. There's also a very big difference between Entertainers and Clerks. Clerks are a Worker job, Clerks come en masse and easy all on their own. Entertainers even at level 10 buff are still weaker than Clerks, they need buildings, etc. Entertainers are a stopgap solution for when you really need amenities, not a desirable job otherwise.

1% Pop grow per entertainer is not bad

And they are very spammable on ecus

But yes of course, clerks are everywhere anyway

 

[Calvax]

42 from Trade Posts is, a bad joke. That's about 3 Clerks with 9 TV + Thrifty. And you're not going to have any meaningful numbers of these starbases. And this is before we stack the absurd numbers of trade modifiers on top of this. Did my Clerks just Win Capitalism? Earth > Dyson Sphere output
by u/kikaider1121 in Stellaris

Same guy has optimised it even further. One trade world can have the resource output of nearly 3 dyson spheres.

 

[-Marauder-]

Same guy has optimised it even further. One trade world can have the resource output of nearly 3 dyson spheres.

It's fine for the investment and all, but it makes it ridiculous that Mega Corps did not get an equivalent Civic. The Trade Empire is now weaker at trade than a regular Empire.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Same guy has optimised it even further. One trade world can have the resource output of nearly 3 dyson spheres.

That was possible even before the patch, before rings, before cyborg trade traits, etc.

The max reasonably achievable now is something like 60k. Maybe 40k without Azaryn.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

It's fine for the investment and all, but it makes it ridiculous that Mega Corps did not get an equivalent Civic. The Trade Empire is now weaker at trade than a regular Empire.

Technically, you can use it. All released megacorp vassals start with Merchant Guilds. You get 10% of their trade (85% if you make them a Prospectorium), and you can open a branch office for even more.

Vassal spam is an annoying degenerate mechanic, but it does actually work here.

 

[RoverStorm]

Vassal spam is an annoying degenerate mechanic, but it does actually work here.

Honestly I really love how Megacorps succeed specifically with janky builds and never the straightforward sollution most empire would use.

Normal empire: I take merchant guilds and buff my clerks.
Megacorp: Every single one of my systems is semi-autonomous and has a commercial pact with every single other one of my systems, thus meaning every subject is earning about 5 times their resource cap of energy and CG each month.
Normal empire:...I use starbases for naval cap.
Megacorp: Tradebases. I get naval cap from tech only and I just pay 300% upkeep because naval cap is a suggestion for poor people.
Normal empire:........I'm settling a new colony-
Megacorp: Our colony.
Normal empire: I'm passing Universal Prosperity Mandata
Megacorp: Sounds good. Mandatory Chemical Bliss. -60% job output doesn't affect trade (correction: it didn't before this update, haven't tested if this has changed yet). Or amenitites. Also 0.5 trade from everyone passively. Also because we are on +40% happiness, I'm passing Profit Maximization Engines.
Normal empire: I'm becoming the Emperor, which will break your trade union.
Megacorp: I'm gaining a charter, now all your planets are our planets.
Normal empire: What if I made you the emperor?
Megacorp: Twelveth verse, same as the tenth.
Normal empire: What would you do if I fired all my clerks?
Megacorp: I would go to Gospel of the Masses so every spiritualist on your planets gives 0.33 trade.
Normal empire: I'm expropriating you.
Megacorp: YARR HARR FIDDLE DE DEEE, ALL YOUR RELICS BELONG TO MEEE~
Normal empire: I can do that too with Barbaric Despoilers?!?
Megacorp: We can decide to be pirates anytime anyplace. You have to commit.
Normal empire: Fine! I'm starting a new game. Inward Perfection. You can't use my colonies.
Megacorp: *Grabs Balaclava*
Normal empire: ....no....don't do it....
Megacorp: Aw ferget abauht it, you won't even notice the bio-reprocessing plants.
Normal empire: I hate you.
Megacorp: I need you for profit. Do you want this to be mutually beneficial or do you want Franchise Headquarters and Illicit Research Labs?