Mercenary : Bug, weird thing, and suggestion

[Dark3lf]

Bug
1. Victual Brother 300g merc can bankrupt your country in 1 month, their real monthly payment is around 2000g/month not 20g/month. (thanks to Hroppa and jpr123)
2. We can't declare war when we already raise levy, but we can declare war when we already raise merc. It's easy to flood enemy and destroy they recently raised levy one by one with merc.
3. When we hire 2@60g merc or 2000-3000 mercenary, we can declare war to pagan without worry that other pagan lord will declared war back on us.

Weird
1. Mercenary is too cheap, for example Denmark can deploy 3000 merc almost from the start and can start destroying Balkan pagan non stop one by one using merc only.

Suggestion :

Either tone down the mercenary, raise it price or lower it number, or give an option to disable it. When i try to play without mercenary, my enemy hire one and with the merc he outnumber me badly :angry:

No mercenaries with transport capability or transport for hire? A lord who don't have enough transport can't attack across the ocean.

 

[Sir Garnet]

I've seen various countries use mercenaries and it seems all right to me. They are the tool of the wealthy, and sometimes a big equalizer. If you have a lot of money and time, and avoid bloody battles or assaults, you can maintain a strong mercenary force for quite a while as historically. More likely, the deficit catches up with you and you can't support their full strength.

 

[Dark3lf]

Problem is the mercenary is not expensive at all. You don't need a lot of money, a duke can afford 1500 men strong mercenary for long time. Why bother with militia training ground giving 60 light infantry +30 archer at the cost 100 gold if we can hire 1500 mercenaries for 60 gold and use it to conquer another province? Playing as a poor count from house Nakonid of Lubeck, i can conquer 5 county from pagan land under 20 years using merc, never bother with any upgrade or levy.

 

[unmerged(241678)]

In the early game it might be true that mercs are a little overpowered but for 500g you can either keep 1500 mercs for 6.1 years or build your militia training ground up to tier 3 giving you 390 soldiers (210 LC+ 180 A) for as long as you keep the county (about 350 years).
During the 20 years of the demo no building makes any sence to build but once you play the full game and keep your dynasty alive (and in your homeland) for more than a century they become the better choise over mercs.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Don't forget that you also receive gold when occupying a holding, so you can fuel a mercenary army by quickly finishing sieges.

 

[Andrzej2]

Maybe it should take some time to gather mercenaries. It's weird that they appear in your capital immediately when you hire them.

 

[fl0dA]

I'm wondering whats are the odds for turning the Merc against you when out of gold. It should be more often than now (DEMO). Maybe the preview version is using slighty different code. And I agree in short term the Mercs are a bit OP but as Galadhonnen said in full version it could be better. So I'll wait for relase and then i'll start complain ;p

 

[Julyan]

The mercenaries aren't too cheap to hire in my opinion but they, and regular levies, are too cheap to maintain. Even the lowliest of barons can afford to send his entire levy out to fight and still make a profit. A king with few vassals and low feudal taxes can afford to maintain his levy and a band of mercenaries indefinitely. Maybe it evens out later on when guard quarters, etc. start popping up and levy sizes increase but I have my doubts since income increases at the same rate. I liked the CK1 model where wars were very expensive business. A rich kingdom went bankrupt in three months flat if they maintained their entire army, the only problem there was that the AI was written by one guy on a coffee break so it was hard coded not to go into the negative which led to whole bunch of other problems.

 

[fl0dA]

You have the point. The whole economic side of the game is covered. And yes, maintance of troops should be higher

 

[Dark3lf]

I'm wondering whats are the odds for turning the Merc against you when out of gold. It should be more often than now (DEMO). Maybe the preview version is using slighty different code. And I agree in short term the Mercs are a bit OP but as Galadhonnen said in full version it could be better. So I'll wait for relase and then i'll start complain ;p

As a great abuser of merc, pretty sure the chance of merc to turning against us is pretty low, only twice my merc rebel against me, usually the usury event kick in allowing me to borrow some money or the merc simply pull out.

Even in the long term mercenary still win because player can use merc to acquire new holding = more troop in new castle holding in long run. With 500 gold player can hire 3@60g merc, fielding 4500 armies with enough money to cover the monthly payment to abuse pagan. At least with that kind amount of troop player can get 4-5 county from pagan. Getting 4-5 county + all the baronies in it is much better investment than building 3 lvl training ground. Beside building 3 lvl training ground takes time and we must wait for the troop to refill slowly.

From my experience, usually 300 gold is more than enough to get 3-4 county from pagan using 2@60g merc.

@Julyan
Agree!

 

[unmerged(8762)]

I'm finding that as Mathilda, it's remarkably easy to hire mercs to wage war on Bavaria (for Trent) and still retain tons of cash. I had 2 60g mercs, 1800 levied troops and walked all over Bavaria... which seems... odd. I also had about 600 gold in the piggy bank.

Given both Mercs were English, I wonder if the Mercs should actually appear in their country of origin (or country of last hire) and make their way to you first?

 

[Onedreamer]

they are "disorganized" though, which pretty much simulates that.

 

[unmerged(241678)]

Yes mercs can pay for themself as long as they besige holdings but sooner or later pagans and muslims (those you can declare war on without CB) are either gone or quite far away (mercs that run for 3+ month arent that cheap anymore). So you start needing claims and to fabricate one takes an average of 10 years and to inherit or find a claiment seems to take even longer. Now if you go to war with a duchy over a county the war might be over in less than 10 month which means that your 1500 mercs are 12g/month (including the initial hireing costs) and while you might be able to keep them up longer to reduce the impact of the inital costs they still cost 6g/month more than 1500 soldiers in your levies that cost nothing during peace time.
Another thing about levies you forget to caculate in is that they are worth having even if they cant siege because its peace time, especaly if you take a look at larger realms (holdings far away, like crusaider holdings). Mercs that spawn at you capital when the war begins might end up running around for a few month and/or cost additinal ships until they reach the front while a strong local castle can raise its levies there instantly. This will not only save money during the traveling-time but might enable you to prevent the enemy from besieging your holdings and by doing so from taking siege-gold out of you valet.

About the general economy: I am not sure that looking at the first 20 years of the demo qualifies anyone of us to make a solid comment about that.
Even the cheapest improvement in a holding needs at least 50 years to pay off so no human playing the demo spends any money on those improvements but that doesnt mean that you will have no need to ever upgrade your castle walls within the 3 centuries of the full game. On the other hand, during the demo you can raise curch, city and even feudal taxes during the reign of your first ruler and even though all these tax raises give relation hits with your vassals you can keep them happy. This might be, because during the15 years it takes to change the 3 tax laws, the short reign penelty changes to a long reign bonus and other boni for prestige/piets, granting land and soon add up as well. Once your ruler dies all those boni are instantly gone for you succesor and you might find your whole realm fall apart because it wasnt stable enough to survive a succesion which is no problem within the demo since in 90%ofthe games it doesnt even happen but in the full game you definatly have to be prepared for that.

All in all even though the demo is fun and allows us to get get a basic grip of the game, it is not an open beta that gives an impression of the real game because the most important thing ingame, the succesion, with all its features/problems, is most times not included in your playing experiance.

 

[siis]

Are mercs affected by technology?

 

[Doomdark]

Mercs are half as expensive as they should be in the demo.

 

[Onedreamer]

Yes mercs can pay for themself as long as they besige holdings but sooner or later pagans and muslims (those you can declare war on without CB) are either gone or quite far away (mercs that run for 3+ month arent that cheap anymore). So you start needing claims and to fabricate one takes an average of 10 years and to inherit or find a claiment seems to take even longer. Now if you go to war with a duchy over a county the war might be over in less than 10 month which means that your 1500 mercs are 12g/month (including the initial hireing costs) and while you might be able to keep them up longer to reduce the impact of the inital costs they still cost 6g/month more than 1500 soldiers in your levies that cost nothing during peace time.

A few remarks because you got several things wrong.
- Your mercenaries at peace also cost you nothing. In fact, you just don't contract them.
- As the Duke of Salerno I fought sicilian muslims and they employed mercenaries too. It was not an option for me not to do the same. Actually they employed many more than I could afford (a band of 5k)...
- As Duchess Mathilda I have fabricated claims for Cremona in less than 2-3 months. As the Duke of Salerno I couldn't fabricate claims for Napoli in many years. So the average time isn't 10 years, it surely depends on many factors among which your power and prestige and the one of the title holder surely.

 

[N Katsyev]

Mercs are half as expensive as they should be in the demo.

It makes sense to give people more chance to play around with them. Good call.

 

[Dark3lf]

@Galadhonnen
1. By the time pagan and muslim far away, we are no longer lowly count, it's too easy from count to become king in CK2 because of mercenaries. Also with merc player playing as count with claim to a duke can easily beat the duke in battlefield. The Ai put low priority to hire merc.
2. The cost of merc make feudal levy from vassal is not too important anymore. Player can use prince bishop + free investure to replace lord/duke, player can raise crown authority and balance it with reduce feudal levies.
3. The threat of rebellion from vassal is not frightening because we can handle vassal rebellion using 1-2@60g merc. Playing as Saxon England, not even once i raised my levy facing rebellion from my vassal for 15 years. Not once the AI hire merc when they rebel against me, even when almost all my vassal rebel, 2@60g merc is more than enough if needed i can always raise my personal levy.
4. Player can wage war nonstop, simply by replace exhaust merc with the new one, no need to wait for the levy to replenish slowly.

In short the cheap cost of merc make it's too easy to become big and too easy to stay big at least in 2-3 kingdom size, because vassal is not that important anymore.

edit: Doomdark already answered, case semi closed now

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

A few remarks because you got several things wrong.
- Your mercenaries at peace also cost you nothing. In fact, you just don't contract them.
- As the Duke of Salerno I fought sicilian muslims and they employed mercenaries too. It was not an option for me not to do the same. Actually they employed many more than I could afford (a band of 5k)...
- As Duchess Mathilda I have fabricated claims for Cremona in less than 2-3 months. As the Duke of Salerno I couldn't fabricate claims for Napoli in many years. So the average time isn't 10 years, it surely depends on many factors among which your power and prestige and the one of the title holder surely.

If you don't contract the mercenaries, and then find you need them again you'll need to rehire them, assuming they are still available. If this is within 10 months it would be cheaper to keep them on, but cheaper still to be able to call 1500 levy.

Whether or not you can hire mercenaries depends on how much money you have. Perhaps the muslims in sicily had more money than you? Or perhaps (I haven't looked) they were able to hire a holy order to defend them - costs piety, and there is no upkeep defending against enemies of the faith - I don't know when (or if) muslim holy orders spawn.

If you look at your advisor, he will have a chance to create a claim. If (like for Matilda) it is 10% a year, then the average is 10 years. If the advisor is less skilled, then it will be a lower chance, and thus a longer payoff time.


Edit: Just checked in game, and yes, there is a muslim holy order - the hashashin - which costs 90 (presumably piety) to hire, and about 17 a month upkeep (unless defending in a holy war). You probably ran into them.

 

[Onedreamer]

If you don't contract the mercenaries, and then find you need them again you'll need to rehire them, assuming they are still available. If this is within 10 months it would be cheaper to keep them on, but cheaper still to be able to call 1500 levy.

Whether or not you can hire mercenaries depends on how much money you have. Perhaps the muslims in sicily had more money than you? Or perhaps (I haven't looked) they were able to hire a holy order to defend them - costs piety, and there is no upkeep defending against enemies of the faith - I don't know when (or if) muslim holy orders spawn.

Well you know... you should think that you should always spare some money for emergencies where you have to hire mercenaries. This was actually common in the MA and after all it would be one of the reasons to call this a strategy game, to make a choice such as save money for being able to contract mercenaries. And of course the muslims had more money than I did, they are quite bigger.

There is also a mistake on your part: if I don't contract mercenaries, I don't need to rehire them. I need to hire them...

If you look at your advisor, he will have a chance to create a claim. If (like for Matilda) it is 10% a year, then the average is 10 years. If the advisor is less skilled, then it will be a lower chance, and thus a longer payoff time.

that's only a base chance. I am quite positive there are other factors and especially the prestige delta.