Meme'd hard by the AI, WTT decisions and NF needs tweaking..

[Ivankovsky]

All happened while playing as Germany in Ironman mode with Historical focuses ON, aiming for the "Our place in the sun" achievement.

Everything was going fine until the end of 39, I was just starting my invasion of France with some cheesy paratroopers, then this happened:

The UK and France merged into one faction. Historical Focus ON.
...
I was mind-numbed, didn't even knew this was a possibility!
"Do they think they'll be safe under a new flag?", the flag is just the UK btw.

Well, my paratroopers tried a reverse Dunkerque:

But to no avail.

Well then, this doesn't change much, I'll just start "Schlieffen Once More" NF to go around Maginot:

"X Is at war with France"
What do you mean I'm not at war with France?? Well, it is just the UK flag...

FINE, I'll just justify war on Belg-

"Non-aligned, need 50% world tension to justify"
OH COME ON!

So my war and my NF are locked because of some Franco-British nonsense, at least they are going full horde mode attacking me and losing manpower.

Meanwhile lets take a look at Poland... Oh the Soviet Union is invading them, and they want to join my faction!

"Non-Aligned, needs more World Tension" I guess millions of Soviet troops invading is not "tense" enough for the Poles, nerves of steel.

Alright, this is a meme game so I might as well go all in, I'm starting the "Danzig for guarantees" NF, in this focus Poland gives Danzig to Germany in return for German assistance against the USSR:

And naturally, having in consideration that they were already invaded and puppeted by the USSR, they accept and give me Danzig for "protection" against their masters....

Made as much sense as this game so far, the game seemed to notice:

"Invalid Idea"

(This is actually the second time I did this NF, in the previous attempt Poland accepted my assistance but joined the Allies, resulting in a awkward situation were I'm supposed to help Poland, but I can't because the faction they are in is at war with me...)

To put the cherry on top, later in the game I managed to invade the British mainland:

But EXACTLY when I was about to make them capitulate, the US joins the war...
Good game.

To conclude this, the game was fun but it needs some fixing...
To be specific:
- the "Schlieffen Once More" NF cannot be affected by the Franco-British nonsense.
- "Danzig for guaranties" NF needs to take circumstances into consideration (allying with GER, not the allies and not accept once puppeted by the USSR)
- a faction join modifier for Kaiser Germany
- leave the Franco-British nonsense for non-historical please...

Hope you enjoyed the memes, thanks for your time.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

A lot NFs are borked in certain sectors, if something ahistorical happens in the game. It got much worse with this update, because there are more ways for ahistorical gameplay, while a lot older parts weren't touched at all and still require the "normal" circumstances.

And the historical mode can be quite... suprising too atm. Balkan States joining the Japanese faction, Republic of Spain winning the CW, random civil wars, where the democratic side joins the Axis and stuff like that. And on top of that: Without historical focus the game can be a complete mess, where you are at war against the Hungarian faction... as China, because Hungary joined the Japanese one before it took the focus for an own faction and stuff like that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's annoying that non-aligned is still shackled so much. Did monarchies forget how to justify wars? They didn't seem to have any trouble in the previous 3000+ years, and I find it hard to believe that they'd *inherently* have more trouble than newly formed communist/fascist, depending on country situations.

And the historical mode can be quite... suprising too atm. Balkan States joining the Japanese faction, Republic of Spain winning the CW, random civil wars, where the democratic side joins the Axis and stuff like that. And on top of that: Without historical focus the game can be a complete mess, where you are at war against the Hungarian faction... as China, because Hungary joined the Japanese one before it took the focus for an own faction and stuff like that.

SA countries will join factions vs non-faction enemies and Germany will dutifully suicide its own fronts to try to help there.

You know, because panzers are great in the Amazon and Peruvian mountains.

 

[BeauNiddle]

They said France uses different AI scripts depending on what Germany gets up to. These OVERRIDE historical mode.

Changing Germany to a non-aligned monarchy was one of the triggers for France going off script (as it were)

As to the other things you mentioned yeah they need to play more with their triggers. If you report them in the bug forum they'll be more likely to get fixed.

 

[Secret Master]

- leave the Franco-British nonsense for non-historical please...

Wait, so you went ahistorical with a monarchy, and everything else went off the rails? That doesn't sound too far fetched.

They said France uses different AI scripts depending on what Germany gets up to. These OVERRIDE historical mode.

We have winner. That's what happened alright.

I'm also curious as to why WT was so low by late 1939. Did Japan forget to wake up the tiger?

 

[Ivankovsky]

Wait, so you went ahistorical with a monarchy, and everything else went off the rails? That doesn't sound too far fetched.



We have winner. That's what happened alright.

I'm also curious as to why WT was so low by late 1939. Did Japan forget to wake up the tiger?

Is a German invasion that different if the only change is a Fuhrer or a Kaiser? Some divisions defending their cities against cheesy paratroopers would be a good enough script change for me...
"Ho no! They killed Fuhrer and old Kaiser is now leading the charge! Lets bend over and make a Medieval era English wet-dream come true!".

Also, locking my non-historical NF's is totally acceptable now because I made a ahistorical decision.

Edit: About the WT, again, maybe if the Franco-British nonsense hadn't blocked my "around Maginot" NF the WT would be a little higher, in any case, I find hard to believe the Kaiser forgot how to declare wars.

 

[sortulv]

It is kinda scary that the AI is smart enough to use exploits against the player (Franco-Brittan union to prevent Schleiffen Once More)... Maybe we could get a button to request the AI to avoid using exploits?

 

[Secret Master]

Is a German invasion that different if the only change is a Fuhrer or a Kaiser?

It is in game rules if you become non-aligned. No wonder the AI is told to throw historical focuses out of the window if Germany does something really weird. Hell, with Germany non-aligned, Germany might not even be the enemy in WWII anymore. It might be a fascist US or an aggressive Soviet Union. If the AI sticks to the script when a drastic change like that occurs, you end up with even more insanity.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wait, so you went ahistorical with a monarchy, and everything else went off the rails? That doesn't sound too far fetched.

That's not the issue this thread highlights. It answers nothing but the 4th point he presents, while completely ignoring the bulk of the discussion. This kind of post is disingenuous and unfair to the OP.

Making this kind of post implies that a puppet giving land to a non-overlord (without war) isn't "farfetched" (when actually this bypasses typical game rules outright), and that it's okay for changing your color to block a NF war because reasons.

 

[Secret Master]

It answers nothing but the 4th point he presents, while completely ignoring the bulk of the discussion.

Actually, it also addresses his first point:

The UK and France merged into one faction. Historical Focus ON.
...
I was mind-numbed, didn't even knew this was a possibility!
"Do they think they'll be safe under a new flag?", the flag is just the UK btw.

And his second point:

"Non-aligned, need 50% world tension to justify"
OH COME ON!

The chances of France and Britain creating the union are far less if historical focus is turned on. But if the Germany goes non-aligned and France AI is told to override, then the union is more likely. The override is a direct result of his ahistorical actions.

And he's the one who flipped to non-aligned, so he can't justify on Belgium. That is a direct consequence of his ahistorical action. Hitler's Germany would not have this problem, and you know it.

 

[Telenil]

From what I've seen, the two problems are that Poland accepts Danzig for Guarantees even when puppeted by the Soviet, and that the Franco-British Union doesn't count as France. So it's a National Focus thing, and should be reported in the Bugs forum.

50% WT for justification and the Union happening in this case are working as designed, and it wouldn't really be a problem if the above bugs hadn't happened.

There could be an argument for monarchists to be separated from Non-Aligned, with a different set of rules, but that's a separate topic.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Actually, it also addresses his first point:

That wasn't one of the bullet points. The issue with this isn't that it can happen, it's that it magically blocks "around the Maginot" as if going around the Maginot isn't still a sensible option.

The 50% justification rule doesn't have much to do with historical focuses or actions, it's just questionable design in its own right. He tried it when around the Maginot arbitrarily was blocked.

This game is not internally consistent. To put it in OP's terms, it goes "meme mode" with non-meme restrictions that are not consistent to the game state. The Polish given land to Germany in this case is *egregious*, but being stuck in an arbitrary WT restriction on justifying while the game blocks the player from using a NF that is a major source of WT is nonsense also.

From what I've seen, the two problems are that Poland accepts Danzig for Guarantees even when puppeted by the Soviet, and that the Franco-British Union doesn't count as France. So it's a National Focus thing, and should be reported in the Bugs forum.

Basically this. Blocking non-aligned from war doesn't make much sense in many cases either, but the issue here is that France gets to proclaim itself not-France and block a NF, arbitrarily (the game does not handle this sort of interaction consistently).

 

[Groovdog]

In my current game the SU took Bessarabia from my puppeted Romania (via focus) using SU focus tree. That is BS without giving me right of first refusal or CB at least.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In my current game the SU took Bessarabia from my puppeted Romania (via focus) using SU focus tree. That is BS without giving me right of first refusal or CB at least.

Agreed. This is also yet-again inconsistent in the game. Not only is this impossible to do w/o NFs, but you *can* refuse Sudetenland as a puppet overlord. Why can you do that but not Bessarabia? Reasons.

 

[Secret Master]

That wasn't one of the bullet points. The issue with this isn't that it can happen, it's that it magically blocks "around the Maginot" as if going around the Maginot isn't still a sensible option.

Or you could just justify manually if you meet the requirements, like anyone who hadn't swapped to non-aligned could do at a lower WT.

Again, he's the one who swapped ideologies and can't justify on Belgium. That's not France or any other AI's fault. That's the player's fault for not knowing or remembering that you can't justify as easily if you are non-aligned.

The Poland issue is stupid; I readily admit that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Or you could just justify manually if you meet the requirements, like anyone who hadn't swapped to non-aligned could do at a lower WT.

Again, he's the one who swapped ideologies and can't justify on Belgium. That's not France or any other AI's fault. That's the player's fault for not knowing or remembering that you can't justify as easily if you are non-aligned.

The Poland issue is stupid; I readily admit that.

Not being able to do "around the Maginot" is also stupid. "Do they think they will be safe under a different flag" --> yes, because while this event text very directly states that "each citizen of one nation will gain it to the other" (strict implication that France still exists as a concept and has a government), the game just pretends UK full-annexed France and blocks the focus for no coherent reason whatsoever.

I don't think a dev could refute the case this is bugged actually; the game's UI is inconsistent from one place to the next. France getting a magic war shield by pretending it's UK is junk, especially in the context of what that path is allegedly doing for France/UK.

 

[Ivankovsky]

Or you could just justify manually if you meet the requirements, like anyone who hadn't swapped to non-aligned could do at a lower WT.

Again, he's the one who swapped ideologies and can't justify on Belgium. That's not France or any other AI's fault. That's the player's fault for not knowing or remembering that you can't justify as easily if you are non-aligned.

The Poland issue is stupid; I readily admit that.

Do you spend your time here just to be disingenuous?

You are blaming me for going non-aligned in a non-aligned branch of the Focus Tree, a Focus Tree that gives me annex goals against Luxembourg and Belgium.
I didn't "meet the requirements" not because I wanted to justify as non-aligned, but because the NF that was supposed to give me annex goals was locked by a out-of-the-blue AI decision.

I invite you to look at the Focus Tree again and tell me how France pretending to be UK and thus locking a NF is "my fault":

If being at war against "Franco-British Union" was also considered being at war with "France" in this NF, then there would be less of a problem, as it stands its just a cheap way of locking Focus Tree progress and dodging capitulation.

 

[Alliegorical]

With historical focuses off, France has a 15% chance of offering union to UK, who has a 90% chance of agreeing. With historical focuses on, that chance is merely halved to 7.5%, which after factoring the odds of British agreement means that even with historical focuses on, there's a 6.75% chance of a Franco-British Union. So it's pretty darn unlikely, but not astronomically unlikely. Play the game enough, and you'll see it once or twice.

What the devs surely never expected was that Germany might defeat France without attacking through Benelux. Even harder to imagine than that is Germany actually defeating France without ever establishing a land connection with Germany Proper, and then being stuck because your neutral government can't justify war with the tension as weirdly low as it is. I can't say I blame them, really; your method was pretty spicy, and this is like 5 different edge-cases rolled into one. I'd make a bug report, just to make sure that Paradox is aware of this. It'll be a very easy fix. Just replace Is at war with France with Is at war with whomever owns Paris.

 

[Secret Master]

You are blaming me for going non-aligned in a non-aligned branch of the Focus Tree, a Focus Tree that gives me annex goals against Luxembourg and Belgium.

I'm blaming you for going ahistorical, then complaining that the AI does something you didn't expect, ruining your strategy.

No one forced you to go non-aligned. And going non-aligned has consequences. One of those consequences is that it changes the threshold for manual justification.

Not being able to do "around the Maginot" is also stupid.

I can't even think of the last time I ran it in any form. But leaving that aside, the only reason any of this happened is because someone went ahistorical, then cheesed with PARA, and then the AI decided on some cheese of its own.

What the devs surely never expected was that Germany might defeat France without attacking through Benelux.

I don't think that's it. I think it's closer to something like this:

The Devs did not anticipate only forcing France to surrender with PARA while going non-aligned and the AI choosing to run Franco-British Union all at the same time. It's several things happening at the same time.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But leaving that aside, the only reason any of this happened is because someone went ahistorical, then cheesed with PARA, and then the AI decided on some cheese of its own.

This is blaming UI inadequacy on the player, and that's not a logically sound position. It's common here and on civ forums and it's pretty vexing, no matter how many dislikes I got on that Yugoslavian fake difficulty thread. Soundly designed and implemented strategy games do not provide players with wrong or inconsistent information and rules. At least civ 6 doesn't toss the pretense of ironman onto the flames, though they're much worse in some other ways.

He had no reason to anticipate in advance that France using the chameleon skill would give them a magic pathing war shield, ahistorical or not. The motivation for that focus and allegedly the conditions for its existence are still there...but nope can't do it because reasons.

The "devs didn't anticipate this" line is getting old. That's been a longstanding problem with NF interactions since 1.0, and for every patch then to now.