Melting Pots and a new idea about them

[Trovador]

Hello all!

Melting pots are a very important part of CK2, specially because of England. In CK1, there was a sequence of events that turned Saxons and Normans into English, in England.

Until now, we know that culture changes accordly with the ruler - that is, if an italian court rules England for enough time, the locals will eventually turn Italian. There will probably be many factors to adjust such "cultural spread", but this alone can't solve the English problem: there are no provinces nor characters of English/Anglo-Saxon culture in the game start, as such culture appeared in the game afterwards.

Despite the large number of previews, no one mentioned melting pots, so probably this part is still under development. No dev. said anything explicit about it, IIRC.

I would like to ask to the devs, then, which kind of decision you did already about Melting Pots, or at least which plans you have about it.

I have also a somewhat different, but 'alternate history friendly' idea: "National Cultures". England had a mix of Normans and Saxons, but both were part of a single Kingdom which lacked an unique, independent culture before. In general terms, it was a Kingdom without a legitime national culture, but that culture appeared eventually, due to the cultural mix.
So, what if every/most/some Kingdoms had an associated 'national culture', that could appear if: 1)The Kingdom exists, 2)It's centralized enough, 3)Its national culture do not exist and 4)It has some degree of cultural mix. If the conditions were met, you could ennact a decision to create its own culture OR an event could fire, 'creating' the culture, giving this new culture to the Ruler, the capital province and some other provinces/vassals.

This could simulate not only the English case, but also the Portuguese (another culture that should not exist by the game start), maybe the Sicilian (south Italian) culture too, and even alternate countries: if Burgundy become independent, and evolved into a centralized state, it would most certainly develop a new culture, instead of the sole mix of Occitan, Italian, French and German cultures that composed it. Even the Leonese could develop independently from the castillians, in an Alt-Portuguese style if they grew away from the Castillians and with the 'right characteristics' to create their own culture.
Most kingdoms would not have such kind of "national culture", or their national cultures would already exist (Castillian, Catalan, German etc), so the melting pots would not mess with the standard cultural spread.

So, what do you think? And, could the devs and/or the previewers say briefly how such new cultures appear in the game?

 

[unmerged(319241)]

So, what if every/most/some Kingdoms had an associated 'national culture', that could appear if: 1)The Kingdom exists, 2)It's centralized enough, 3)Its national culture do not exist and 4)It has some degree of cultural mix. If the conditions were met, you could ennact a decision to create its own culture OR an event could fire, 'creating' the culture, giving this new culture to the Ruler, the capital province and some other provinces/vassals.

I think in the case of England something very much like this happens, but it seems to be unique, specially made for England. I think it's a good idea to apply it for other countries, but wouldn't you have to invent some national cultures for nations that have not mixed historically?

Most kingdoms would not have such kind of "national culture", or their national cultures would already exist (Castillian, Catalan, German etc), so the melting pots would not mess with the standard cultural spread.

In fact I think you could add a "national culture" to most kingdoms, by just splitting their culture. For example it would be neither unrealistic nor wrong to split german culture into bavarian, swabian, franconian and saxon, which would form german "national culture", or to split the czech national culture into bohemian and moravian

 

[Ruwaard]

Hello all!

Melting pots are a very important part of CK2, specially because of England. In CK1, there was a sequence of events that turned Saxons and Normans into English, in England.

Until now, we know that culture changes accordly with the ruler - that is, if an italian court rules England for enough time, the locals will eventually turn Italian. There will probably be many factors to adjust such "cultural spread", but this alone can't solve the English problem: there are no provinces nor characters of English/Anglo-Saxon culture in the game start, as such culture appeared in the game afterwards.

Despite the large number of previews, no one mentioned melting pots, so probably this part is still under development. No dev. said anything explicit about it, IIRC.

I would like to ask to the devs, then, which kind of decision you did already about Melting Pots, or at least which plans you have about it.

I have also a somewhat different, but 'alternate history friendly' idea: "National Cultures". England had a mix of Normans and Saxons, but both were part of a single Kingdom which lacked an unique, independent culture before. In general terms, it was a Kingdom without a legitime national culture, but that culture appeared eventually, due to the cultural mix.
So, what if every/most/some Kingdoms had an associated 'national culture', that could appear if: 1)The Kingdom exists, 2)It's centralized enough, 3)Its national culture do not exist and 4)It has some degree of cultural mix. If the conditions were met, you could ennact a decision to create its own culture OR an event could fire, 'creating' the culture, giving this new culture to the Ruler, the capital province and some other provinces/vassals.

This could simulate not only the English case, but also the Portuguese (another culture that should not exist by the game start), maybe the Sicilian (south Italian) culture too, and even alternate countries: if Burgundy become independent, and evolved into a centralized state, it would most certainly develop a new culture, instead of the sole mix of Occitan, Italian, French and German cultures that composed it. Even the Leonese could develop independently from the castillians, in an Alt-Portuguese style if they grew away from the Castillians and with the 'right characteristics' to create their own culture.
Most kingdoms would not have such kind of "national culture", or their national cultures would already exist (Castillian, Catalan, German etc), so the melting pots would not mess with the standard cultural spread.

So, what do you think? And, could the devs and/or the previewers say briefly how such new cultures appear in the game?

Shouldn't the other way around be more common though? If an Italian dynasty rules England long enough, wouldn't it be much more likely that the dynasty turns English; before their subjects turn Italian, unless if the ruling dynasty has the culture of a neighboring country.

 

[Nick B II]

Shouldn't the other way around be more common though? If an Italian dynasty rules England long enough, wouldn't it be much more likely that the dynasty turns English; before their subjects turn Italian, unless in the ruling dynasty has the culture of a neighboring country.

In theory yes.

In the actual preview copies of the game we have access to? No.

Which is not a good sign. Fortunately this is all done by event, so it will be possible to fix yourself.

Nick

 

[unmerged(308910)]

One thing, Catalonian mention didnt appear until the end of 11th. century .

 

[Hroppa]

Well... there should be push from both directions. There's certainly a strong tendency for people to copy the behaviour and cultural styles of their superiors (the reason some regions of Spain speak with a lisping accent? There was a king with a lisp). Some kind of ultra-dynamic and flexible cultural system would be required to do it justice, with influence from both up and down the feudal hierarchy. Also, cultures meld and develop over time, changing entirely. British culture today doesn't have much in common with British culture 400 years ago; the same goes for the 1066-1453 period.

So, it'd be great if an intrepid modder comes along - or if there's a DLC (though this doesn't strike me as a wildly popular priority). Expecting anything more than a very rudimentary model of cultural change in the main game is a big ask, though.

 

[bgibbard]

(the reason some regions of Spain speak with a lisping accent? There was a king with a lisp)

Sorry, but that one is an urban legend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceceo Check about half-way down the page under "Castilian Lisp". They aren't actually lisping, and the story of the origin of the particular Castilian pronunciation is not true.

 

[Hroppa]

Fair enough Still, I think the point stands that the copying of elites' behaviour and culture is a common phenomenon.

 

[Sir Leningrad]

One thing, Catalonian mention didnt appear until the end of 11th. century .

And that's exactly when the game starts (is it in 1065? 1066?). Also, for a culture to be mentioned in a book, it has to exist first and cultures are not exactly something that appears overnight.

I also agree that new cultures should be possible because it's a plausible evolution, although for culture we have to understand something more etereal and with less differences between each of them than in the next ages.

 

[unmerged(308910)]

Ok If you think 60's are end of a century it's your opinion

 

[Sir Leningrad]

Ok If you think 60's are end of a century it's your opinion

Do you really think cultures start exactly one day at a determinate time? Maybe at 14th July 7:35' a.m. in time for breakfast?

 

[Trovador]

Well, cultural changes happened in both ways, IRL: in England, the combination of Norman rulers and Saxon people lead to a new culture; in Naples, the Norman rulers ended up becoming more and more italians (or at least sicilians); and in Spain, the Castillians managed to 'castillianize' the southern half of the penninsula.

The devs said that, in general, at least both cultural transitions can happen: up-down and bottom-up.

If a 'generic' mechanism for Melting Pots was added, some 'liberties' would need to be taken, indeed, as there was never an actually strong Leonese or 'Old Burgundian/Arelat' culture. However, if there are possible christian kingdom in regions that never had them (King of Africa, of Persia, of Egypt), I think we could have new cultures to these few European kingdons that did nor existed for long enough in this period.

Well, if the english cultural change is hard-coded, I don't think it would be too hard for modders to do the same with Portugal and Burgundy, as they're the only other examples I can think about. Maybe if the Normans from Naples took another path, a 'Sicilian' culture could rise, just like how the english normans could either become Saxons themselves, or 'Normandize' England. Sicily was at least as culturally diverse as England by the start of this period, it seems.

But, again, a few word from the devs, even a "we're still working on this" would be quite great.

 

[unmerged(113049)]

The problem is that you can see the problem here. "English" was an idea that came about and had to be applied by various rulers and types of people; Normans, Anglo-Saxons, and Angevins (Chaucer arising during the rule of the Plantagenets). If you're advocating these melting pots, wouldn't there have to be a unique melting pot culture for every crossing of ruler/popular culture? Including the melting pot cultures?

 

[Trovador]

Theorically, yes, but we know it would be costly and hardly never used. However, as most kingdoms already have a culture closely associated with their respective King titles, and are unlikely to be ruled and transformed into another culture (The French for example), we could implement this feature to simulate, in game, where it actually happened(Portugal, England), as well as places with a heterogeneous cultural background and without a strong connection between the crown and a singular culture (k. Burgundy, maybe Sicily if they took another path in the game, or Leon). I think it sounds like a good compromise between including all possible-but-improbable combinations, and totally ignoring such possibilites. If they rely only in scripted events, we would lose both the possibility of England keeping Saxon/Turning Norman; and all the possibilities of other countries taking other paths (or event countries that never existed taking a path simillar to the English one).