Melting CAGS!?

[unmerged(24903)]

Playing my first Semper Fi game as Germany, and I'm trying to build up a real navy. In late 1939 have a fleet available for North Sea engagements with 12-14 ships, including 2 carriers. I have gotten into a number of favorable engagements, and I'm doing more damage than I'm taking, but still, every engagement brings my CAGS down to zero org and dramatically reduced strength in a single day.

1) Should this be an expected result?

2) Is there a technology or doctrine I can research that will make my CAGS more resilient?

3) Is there a technique I can use to deploy my carriers that would make my CAGS more resilient?

TIA,

Kirk

 

[ArmChairAttila]

Playing my first Semper Fi game as Germany, and I'm trying to build up a real navy. In late 1939 have a fleet available for North Sea engagements with 12-14 ships, including 2 carriers. I have gotten into a number of favorable engagements, and I'm doing more damage than I'm taking, but still, every engagement brings my CAGS down to zero org and dramatically reduced strength in a single day.

1) Should this be an expected result?

2) Is there a technology or doctrine I can research that will make my CAGS more resilient?

3) Is there a technique I can use to deploy my carriers that would make my CAGS more resilient?

TIA,

Kirk

1) Well you should expect it in the current game, probably was not intended though.
2) Been awhile since I have played HOI III SF but I do recall some techs to buff the CAG.
3) YES... How I got around the CAG/melting bug was to build 2 CAGs for every carrier slot. I would keep one set of CAG in a well supplied area while the others are flying CAG duty. When the CAG on duty wear out (which can happen in a blink of the eye) I would swap the "fresh supplied" CAGs with the "worn down" CAGs. Micro intensive as all hell but it works well when you get the hang of it. Basically have a good reserve of CAGs sitting in a well supplied province for swapping with the damaged ones.

 

[unmerged(24903)]

Thanks for the quick reply!

1) Well you should expect it in the current game, probably was not intended though.
2) Been awhile since I have played HOI III SF but I do recall some techs to buff the CAG.

I don't suppose that's because you're playing with a mod that fixes this? If so, would love to know what that is.

3) ... I would swap the "fresh supplied" CAGs with the "worn down" CAGs. ...

This is probably a dumb question, but how do you detach a CAG from a carrier - I've poked around on the interface, but somehow I'm just missing how to do this.

 

[ArmChairAttila]

Thanks for the quick reply!


I don't suppose that's because you're playing with a mod that fixes this? If so, would love to know what that is.


This is probably a dumb question, but how do you detach a CAG from a carrier - I've poked around on the interface, but somehow I'm just missing how to do this.

Don't remember the exact mechanics but it goes something like this. Select the CAG on carrier and then right click on a province with a airbase, then select re base. Do the same thing with the fresh CAG but in reverse order, I.E. select fresh CAG then right click carrier, select re base to carrier.

No not playing any mods, though when I did play the game I liked Di's mod a lot. I am waiting for the motherland X-Pac to come out. I do like this game a lot, just sapped with other obligations of my time ATM.

 

[unmerged(24903)]

For any other noobs reading this, turns out you do as ArmChairAttila suggests, except that (oddly) you don't have the rebase option show up as it does w/ fighters or bombers. However, it still will do a rebase if you right click on a province w/ an air base.

 

[grunt11]

I hope FtM makes some changes to the ways CAGs work, because right now they are extremely annoying to deal with. Ghost CAGs and the AI putting TACs and even strategic bombers on carriers are still issues, and having to have a backup set of CAGs to put on carriers because they regain strength and org so slowly is just a micromanaging hassle in a game that has quite enough micromanaging already. It's really annoying to constantly have to look around the map for my carrier groups after an engagement to see if I need to replace the CAGs on them. It makes sense that CAGs lose strength and org quickly because there are fewer planes in them than regular air wings, but they should compensate by regaining them quickly enough to be of use without always having to change them out. I think it is a neccessary gameplay concession because it hurts the gameplay experience in its current state.

 

[ArmChairAttila]

Ya I developed that work around by playing Japan WAY TO MUCH lol.... My last Japan game I had 10 full size carriers, 20 CAGs on duty and 20 CAGs sitting in Tokyo as reserve. Probably overkill but it worked very well for me in that game.

 

[Oof]

2) Make sure your air nav tech and your nav tech carrier doctrine is up to date. For air: navfighter crew (org+) and navground crew (mor+) are the most important ones.

 

[jju_57]

You don't mention what you are fighting. Is it land based air? Other CAG's? Or is this due to your attacks, and if so against what targets (ships, ports etc).

First off the number one key is NEVER EVER combine CV's with anything but CL's or DD's. Number two is do not get a hull penality. Number three is if fighting in the English Channel make sure you have land based interceptors to fight the UK air units.

There should be no reason your CAG's are taking that much damage from just targeting surface ships.

Finally, it has been tested and proved that a near zero organization CAG on a CV will still do damage and sink enemy ships. The enemy ships do very little strength damage to the CAG's and the CV's and escorts are immune from the surface ships so it's a win but it takes longer.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

He could be subject to the "failed return" issue. I noticed that sometimes, esp. after manual missions, intercepted CAG do not return to their CVs properly and can still be attacke by other planes until you manually set them to CAG duty again.

 

[unmerged(24903)]

You don't mention what you are fighting. Is it land based air? Other CAG's? Or is this due to your attacks, and if so against what targets (ships, ports etc).

Against other ships, usually other large stacks w/o any carriers of their own.

First off the number one key is NEVER EVER combine CV's with anything but CL's or DD's. Number two is do not get a hull penality. Number three is if fighting in the English Channel make sure you have land based interceptors to fight the UK air units.

There should be no reason your CAG's are taking that much damage from just targeting surface ships.

Didn't know that! What's the problem w/ combining w/ DD & CLs?

Also, I've read several places that battle cruisers are good to use w/ CVs, since they can keep up speed wise. Is it also bad to group CAs and battle cruisers w/ CVs?

 

[blue emu]

Didn't know that! What's the problem w/ combining w/ DD & CLs?

He said ONLY combine them with CLs and DDs... not DON'T combine them with those ships.

Also, I've read several places that battle cruisers are good to use w/ CVs, since they can keep up speed wise. Is it also bad to group CAs and battle cruisers w/ CVs?

You shouldn't combine CVs with any ships that the opponent can CATCH... or they might catch your CVs, and gun them down.

 

[unmerged(24903)]

He said ONLY combine them with CLs and DDs... not DON'T combine them with those ships.

My bad, I meant to say what's wrong with combining w/ *non-* CLs and DDs.

You shouldn't combine CVs with any ships that the opponent can CATCH... or they might catch your CVs, and gun them down.

OK, I get the point, but if this is about an issue with combining w/ slower ships leading to the CV getting caught, how does that explain the melting CAG effect?

 

[blue emu]

OK, I get the point, but if this is about an issue with combining w/ slower ships leading to the CV getting caught, how does that explain the melting CAG effect?

I think he was just offering general CV advice on that point. The melting CAGs are usually a result of enemy LBA (Land-Based Air) interference. I suppose a really big stack of high-AA-value enemy ships might shoot them up, too... but this is fairly rare.

 

[unmerged(24903)]

ok - thanks for all the help.

Could be that I'm not watching closely enough, and maybe there is some LBA issue (or "failed return" issue or high AA in the enemy ships). I'll keep looking.

 

[Cheese911]

OK, I get the point, but if this is about an issue with combining w/ slower ships leading to the CV getting caught, how does that explain the melting CAG effect?[/QUOTE]

Well I believe the melting cag effect was pretty much explained, its that Cags do not have techs that directly increase organisation, thats based off of officer ratio. There are techs that affect their bombing runs such as ground,naval,port, etc etc and techs that make them deal more damage, have better air defence, faster speeds etc but in regards of organisation, thats off on your officer ratio, the higher, the better in regain rate and I believe the more ORG they have (?). To reinstate ArmChairAttila said to answer your 3rd question, and coming off from my predominantly japan games, keep extra reserve cags on airfields near by the carrier that you are using, then when their strength gets wrecked with their ORG, you swap them with the reserves. Rinse, repeat, glory.

 

[JAF1327]

it was a common practice to rotate out cag's. normally when the cv came into port after it's patrol. this allowed the experienced pilots the chance to pass on their wisdom to the new pilots, and also to rest and ready themselves for the next tour.

in the game, i rarely send any of my fleets into port, unless they are damaged below 90%. my escorts, which in a cv fleet, is always dd, as they are the fastest ships in the game. in fact in single player, i do not bother with the ca or cl tracks. have thought about it, but at this point i do not.

i concentrate on dd bb and cv's, build twice as many cag's as i need, and swap them out after every battle. my bb i only research until the '40. as it takes so long to build a bb. normally i match my bb up with transport ships and dd. sometimes i will attach one cv with them, but normally i do not. as by the time my troops are ready to sail the deep blue sea, most of the sea lanes have been swept clear of enemy ships. in this case then my cv's fleets are sailing near by the transport fleets.
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jaf

 

[jju_57]

What I also found out when I did some extensive testing is a CAG unit with even 1 organization still makes attacks and still does damage to the enemy surface fleet. So with the CV + escort only fleet you will get to attack them but they won't damage any of your ships. I found that since naval battles are spread out more the CAG's usually have time to recoup a few org points and this is enough to continue the attacks.