Mekkah and Jerusalem!

[Galleblære]

I was wondering if there are any events in the game already, regarding capture/liberation of Mekkah/Jerusalem

What I had in mind

Christian nation frees Jerusalem, huge realtion raise with all christian nations, drop with muslim nations. (Its their holy city also!)

If Jerusalem is taken back by a muslim nation, christians should get CB, huge rel. hits with christian nations.

Mekkah:

Should work pretty much the same as jerusalem, IE, muslims will fight to death to liberate it, maybe moreso than christians, if it is captured.

So..any comments?

 

[Lubricus]

I believe that if Mekkah falls to Christians (or other heathens), all Muslim nations should get a permanent CB. In addition, some of the closest nations (Hedjaz, Oman, Mameluks?) should receive some troops as well. Any non-Muslim nation holding that city should be in for a hard time indeed. OTOH, if such a nation managed to hold on to the province for a long time (50 years), the Muslims might concentrate their faith on Jerusalem instead...

Lubricus

 

[Galleblære]

Can any confirm this or not, or is nobody interested? It would be interesting to expand upon this, non? What if a christian nation controls Jerusalem and Mekkah? What would happen then? Would it harm the islamic religion? If islam is losing ground, maybe there could be events for islamic nations to convert to christianity?

 

[Lubricus]

I'm pretty certain that the game doesn't include any special effects concerning Mekkah, except perhaps that Muslims get a CB against the holder, like it is with Rome. But there should be such effects. It shouldn't be too hard to implement either, but I don't know enough about event creation yet.

Lubricus

 

[Galleblære]

Well, if nobody has made it, maybe I can, I do know how. But how should it be implementet? What effects should it have? Should you have the option to destroy the Kaba for example?

 

[Lubricus]

I don't think any real Muslim would destroy the Kaba, even if it fell into Christian hands. But maybe the country losing Mekkah should decide whether to move the Kaba (-150 treasury, another province becomes Muslim holy place, 10 vp) or allow the heathens to take it (-3 stability, -10 relations with other Muslims, -25 vp). You could add a third option: Destroy the Kaba (-50 relations with other Muslims, -50 vp, but no stability loss).

How does that sound?

Lubricus

 

[andre_reitan]

You meen another province with a similar events attached to it ? I feel a move of the Kaba would make Mekka an ordinary city, and thus removing an "all-mosleem" CB on the holder...

And moving something like that overnight..?

Naa, i think that just a mosleem CB is enough.

 

[Lubricus]

Moving the Kaba would of course remove the CB on the heathen nation taking Mekkah. Naturally, moving it would be difficult, hence the cost.

Jerusalem is another thing. Christians could gain some bonus upon taking it, and Muslims might resent the new Christian holders, but it certainly shouldn't be as dramatic as the Mekkah case, since Jerusalem already lies in Muslim lands, and is much less important to Muslims than Mekkah and Medina. The following results of a Christian Jerusalem could be -20 relations with all Muslims, +50 vp, and the following choice: Convert Jerusalem (a further -20 relations with Muslims, +50 relations with Papacy and Byzantium, +5 with all Christians, +1 stability) or Tolerate Muslims in Jerusalem (+10 relations with Muslims, -10 relations with Papacy, +2 revolt risk in some Christian provinces.

Lubricus

 

[unmerged(7837)]

I'd like the option to sack and raze either Jerusalem, Mekka, or Rome, depending on who you're playing, of course. Maybe totally wipe it out, or something along the lines of the "expel the Turks" events in the Byzantium EEP...kick all Christians or Moslems out. Or mass forced conversion, -50% population, religion changes. If someone is going to make it an event, make some of the options really drastic, ya know? Give a weenie option, a middle of the road option, and real drastic, world changing option.

 

[Lubricus]

Is it possible to empty a province completely by event? I mean, remove the city and make it a neutral province? That would be a pretty drastic thing to do with Mekkah or Rome...

Lubricus

 

[Galleblære]

No, it is unfortunatly not possible to destory a province!

What I have in mind, are events for all the holy places

Mekkah, Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople, all connected to religion, IE, Chatolisism, Ortodox, and Islam.

If a christian/non-islamic nation conquers mekkah, they should have the options:

1. Leave it be, open for pilgrimage, affects: Slight rise with islam world, etc
2. Tak pilgrimers: Large income raise, negative relations, cb's etc
3. Destory kaba, war with all islam nations, etc.

If 3, and all islam nations sees a retreat, maybe there should be some religious events asking if islam is the "true faith" or not.

Same events for christians, if arabs take rome for example, and expands into europe.

 

[Lubricus]

Sudden war with ALL Muslim nations could have some strange side effects, like the equally sudden discovery of the capitals of distant Muslim countries. I don't think far-off nations would even learn about the capture of Mekkah, much less want to declare war. Nearby countries like the Mameluks, Hedjaz, Caliphate, Qara Koyunlu etc. might be thrown into war, while all other Muslims get a CB against the heathens, lasting ten years or something.

Lubricus

 

[Ichabod]

I had this idea a while ago... If a Christian nation captures Mecca, then they get the choice to destroy the Kabba or not, if they do, Muslims lose faith in their religion and Sunni muslims become orthodox and Shiite become pagan.

 

[andre_reitan]

Originally posted by Ichabod
I had this idea a while ago... If a Christian nation captures Mecca, then they get the choice to destroy the Kabba or not, if they do, Muslims lose faith in their religion and Sunni muslims become orthodox and Shiite become pagan.

That was quite an extreme point of view, wasn't it? I dont recall all the jews converting to paganism just because the temple in Jerusalem was destroyd... No, i think that a CB is more accurate. (Just look at the situation down there nom!)

 

[Galleblære]

Yeah. The only way I can see the muslims converting, is if most of the muslim lands is controlled by christians, mekkah and jersualem is controlled. Sort of a "is our fatith the correct one, since Allah isnt helping us".

Could also be done for christian nations maybe, if over half of Europe is controlled by muslims...

 

[Lubricus]

Historically, the Orthodox church suffered from existential troubles after the Turks had conquered most of Balkan. If the Ottomans had taken Moscow too, the entire Othodox faith might have disappeared. But would the Orthodox Christians become Muslims or Catholics? That would depend on their rulers, I imagine. But anyway, the same thing COULD theoretically happen to other faiths. Maybe any religion that loses a majority of its provinces, as well as certain key locations, will have to reform. But this haven't really happened IRL, so it is somewhat fantastic. Still, I'd like to see its effects ingame.

Lubricus

 

[unmerged(7837)]

Originally posted by andre_reitan


That was quite an extreme point of view, wasn't it? I dont recall all the jews converting to paganism just because the temple in Jerusalem was destroyd... No, i think that a CB is more accurate. (Just look at the situation down there nom!)

Actually, that DID happen. When the Assyrian king conquered the larger of the two Jewish kingdoms way back when, he scattered the Jews and many of them ended up converting to local religions. The kingdom of Judah was his next target, but they held out and their faith was strengthened because they saw their victory as a sign from God.

Also, I think it would probably be pretty historical to have the fringe Moslems denouce their faith in this case. With the big Moslem conquests going on, there were a lot of forced conversions of conquered people, and if these conquered people saw that the Moslems weren't as strong as they used to be, you might see a bunch of them reverting to their old ways.

 

[Ichabod]

Plus, the average Joe Jew was not required to visit the temple, but the Muslims say Allah told them to visit the Kabba, so natually if a Christian nation cuts off the method of scoring points with their god, Muslims have to wonder why Allah would not zap the heathons.

 

[Lubricus]

Originally posted by Ichabod
Plus, the average Joe Jew was not required to visit the temple, but the Muslims say Allah told them to visit the Kabba, so natually if a Christian nation cuts off the method of scoring points with their god, Muslims have to wonder why Allah would not zap the heathons.

That's pretty simplistic. The large monotheistic religions aren't that dependent upon tangible contact with God. If the Muslims lost their Kaba, they would certainly suffer from some kind of crisis of faith, but I'm sure it wouldn't destroy their religion outright. Some major changes might come about, though.

Lubricus

 

[PMLF]

Originally posted by Lubricus
Historically, the Orthodox church suffered from existential troubles after the Turks had conquered most of Balkan. If the Ottomans had taken Moscow too, the entire Othodox faith might have disappeared. But would the Orthodox Christians become Muslims or Catholics? That would depend on their rulers, I imagine. But anyway, the same thing COULD theoretically happen to other faiths. Maybe any religion that loses a majority of its provinces, as well as certain key locations, will have to reform. But this haven't really happened IRL, so it is somewhat fantastic. Still, I'd like to see its effects ingame.

Lubricus

The Zoroastrian was almost destroyed when the Arabs conquered Persia in the 7th Century. It happened because Zoroastrism was the Persian State Religion and did not existed outside Persia. Now Zoroastrism probably has less than 1 million followers and some of them follow marginal versions of the old Persian Zoroastrism.