[Megathread] Leviathan Release Problems

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StefanFan

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I am with Zaddy here. I know I wouldn't have the patience for some posts I have seen around here, including my posts :eek: We should ask ourselves that, would we have their patience if we were them? I wouldn't have half of their patience, this forum would be a police state forum :cool:
 
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By_Science!

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You need to keep in mind that it is also one of the most heavily moderated gaming forums around. Just because you don't see all the abusive or unhinged posts doesn't mean they aren't being made and removed. For every borderline or beyond post most people see the mods probably dealt with at least two or three. And the overall trend seems to be going in the wrong direction across many social media platforms as abusive behavior, misinformation, and so on continues to not be forcefully addressed.
That said, I seem to recall a Glassdoor review by one of their former employees saying that whenever they criticised the company, that employee was accused of being of having a 'toxic' attitude. Seems to be seeping into their treatment of forum goers, or anyone who doesn't like what they do


"If you are offered a job at PDS QA, do not take it. The people of PDS QA are talented, friendly and hardworking. However, they are poorly treated and very badly paid, even when just compared to wages at PDS. They are overworked, with most doing the workload of two people. Their reports and quality verdicts are regularly ignored (ever wondered why most products launch with major issues? this is why). On top of all that, they are regularly disrespected, lied to and blamed for problems. When any of these issues are pointed out to anyone higher up, QA are told that actually all the problems are caused by their “attitude" or “toxicity". "

It'd be great if management would just chill and realise that if they just made good games, then the money would come.
 
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Sfan

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There undoubtedly are unacceptable comments moderated. And I've seen a few personal attacks and unreasonable assumptions here before they were deleted.

That being said, I completely agree with what others said: I don't see a single community being that overwhelmingly positive and useful. Even now, in those pretty bad times, most people act in a reasonable way, offer suggestions, file bug reports, and are friendly towards the few devs that show up and towards Bjorn and MordredViking.

That forum has always been a place where I found extremely high-quality discussions even on super controversial subjects (nationalism threads asides), including slavery, colonialism or women in history. The standard of respect set by the moderation is extremely high, and I am absolutely glad that's the case.

It's never an enjoyable experience to read that people disagree with you, but saying that this forum is toxic is really mind-boggling. Given that the company released the lowest ever rated item on Steam, it's quite amazing that most people are sad and angered BUT remain mostly reasonable and helpful.

As others pointed out, the silence from the devs is creating the growing anger and toxicity. Comes a point where people are still frustrated by the situation but out of options so people resort to trolling or being childish. That's bad, for sure, but that's avoidable by simply communicating and giving the impression that you care (I'm not even saying that you should care about what we think, but just pretending to care would be a step forward).

Look at a thread like ETA for 1.31.2 that was turning super trollish and pointless until Mordred chimed in, and then it was respectful again.
Or the situation of Portugal: I've read extremely complex and detailed suggestions about Iberia from as far as I remember, growing concern about the region, to the point that there was a thread created every week or so to point issues in 2018. That was still mostly neutral, even if probably less constructive than the first suggestions. Then came GC, and some people turned to anger because the numerous excellent suggestions of 2016-7 had been ignored and all constructive criticism of Portuguese NIs had been ignored even if they were clearly researched. Since then, Portugal is a bit of a meme with some forumers posting about it randomly in unrelated threads, which might be considered toxic or pointless (if you really skew the line). But see where it comes from. And also look at how quickly things turn around when devs actually address this: the Maori thread was derailed by Portuguese enthusiasts as usual, and the simple fact a dev answered there instantly made the discussion non-trollish and friendly, even if what he said about Portugal was mostly generic and empty (we read you, sadly that was not the scope of the patch, but I share your concerns). This honestly isn't hard.

If some devs felt personally attacked or scared it's obviously extremely sad and unacceptable. I won't ask the victims to toughen up or change their behaviour because that's toxic privileged bullshit. I'll ask their colleagues to take a step forward and engage with the community and explain things, like they used to do. Because yes, I remember having great discussions with some devs in the past, ranging from country suggestions to UI or AI behaviour (I send a virtual hug to people like Chaingun or Trin Tragula even if they don't work on EU4 anymore and probably won't read this because they're busy working on another game with seemingly great patches and DLCs, from what I've read).
 
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Atomcreator

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It's the only one i haven't bought so I can't really say. But judging by the reaction that was a good money saving decision.
 
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Atomcreator

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The real kicker isn't even the bugs. Its that the paid features are all broken and unbalanced. What, exactly, are we paying £15 for? An absurd curry favours mechanic that trivialises diplomacy, and which I can only see as an attempt to bandaid the AI problems that earlier updates caused. Concentrating development and pillaging capitals? Totally exploitative and gamey, and mostly to the benefit, not of tall players, but wide ones. Expanding province slots? You mean totally abandoning all pretence of historicism and making every province mechanically the same? And finally monuments. Truly the icing on the cake. Abysmally researched, misplaced, mischosen, and absurdly overpowered. Game's also much better off without them.
 
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Nikoleis

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“Not only is it incredibly demoralising to spend months of your life creating something, only to see the people you made it for tearing it to shreds, it is also a debate that gives no one anything.”

I would say, if the product is provably flawed, it is not a "personal attack" but "a matter of fact", and I fear the journalist took the words of the staff member wthout fact checking the actual state of 1.31 release. Attacks against the persons are bad, yes, but attacks on the product are fair and if they are taking it personally, is a completely different matter. Sadly the idiots calling for Johan resignation or Closing Tinto before it deals more damage are going to serve as a scapegoat out of their responsibility from releasing a product that doesn't pass the "Working as intended" test
 
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Thoshammer

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Just to say, I've lurked on lots of forums on different topics and this forum is by far the most mature that I've seen. The number of times I've seen people get banned or in some cases entire forums being shut down due to abuses from the members is too many to count. In most other gaming communities, the forums would basically be non-existent or mostly screeds about how they wanted to do terrible things over the game not being exactly how they want it to be. I think it's partially because Paradox's playerbase tends to be an older demographic, due to the games being more complex than other styles of strategy or RPG (that said, I played EU3 Ming when I was 9/10 ish!) . EU4 in particular has been around for a really long time in gaming terms, and to get the fanbase this riled up regardless of when they started to play takes a lot. Still, most of what I have seen has been either expression of frustration or genuine suggestions to improve the game, rather than unworkable screeds and immature nonsense. To call the fanbase toxic seems a little disingenuous at best.
 
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dD_ShockTrooper

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I still think Golden Century is worse. While Leviathan did completely break the game, it doesn't look like the effects will be permanent. In the long run, Leviathan will be an improvement to EU4, while every change in Golden Century has made the game less fun to play on an intentionally designed level.
 
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treb

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the product was bad, of course the people who bought it expecting a working product are unhappy. I agree getting mad at Johan Individuals who worked on it isn't the right thing to do but come on, people paid £15 for this! They have a right to be mad and voice it as much as the devs have a right to not be personally attacked.
 
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Atomcreator

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I still think Golden Century is worse. While Leviathan did completely break the game, it doesn't look like the effects will be permanent. In the long run, Leviathan will be an improvement to EU4, while every change in Golden Century has made the game less fun to play on an intentionally designed level.
I've heard different experiences from other players. That concentrate development and curry favours are very unbalanced and effectively ruin the challenge of the game, making it way too easy.
 
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Azrael shane

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i understand how the devs feel it must be bad for your mental health to see threats and calls for you to resign.
tho the product is buggy it will get fixed they working on 1.31.2 afaik.
however people need to stop taking it too far with the patch threats on life and stuff is un called for
 
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Razer_greece

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A quick look on GlassDoor reviews of PDS will tell you everything you need to know why Games/DLCs are half-baked on launch. To summarize, management is terrible and QA is constantly ignored. No need to hate the devs for it, as in most cases a bad launch is hardly ever their fault.
 
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Atomcreator

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Of course, everyone has the right to be mad if the product is poor. But I for one have seen an awful lot of personal attacks on Devs.
It achieves absolutely nothing.
If you wish to have your constructive feedback looked at and implemented then you must present it in a respectful way.

Personally I haven't bought the dlc. As a long time paradox fan I've learnt to buy after the event, or not. Looking at the reaction, that was a wise move.
This thread is about stopping the personal Dev attacks though and perhaps being more constructive with your feedback.

EU4 after all is a game we love and therefore if we want it to succeed we surely should be trying the help the Devs deliver.
 
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TheAtreides84

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Not the time to talk about this. Sure, maybe some customers can get obnoxious. It happens and it's bad. But good God, Paradox just released *the worst rated product in the history of Steam*. They got into the annals of videogames in the worst way possible. Now you don't complain about stuff, now you say "we're sorry and we're going to fix things ASAP". That's all. Saying anything else just adds fuel to the fire.
 
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treb

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(that said, I played EU3 Ming when I was 9/10 ish!) .
You just reminded me of someting id forgotten, My first time playing eu3 was on a laptop in a hospital bed getting chemo at 10, after figuring out straight blocking and spies making mega revolts I shamelessly ripped apart the ottoman empire apart as byzantium over and over again. good times...
 
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Atomcreator

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Not the time to talk about this. Sure, maybe some customers can get obnoxious. It happens and it's bad. But good God, Paradox just released *the worst rated product in the history of the Steam*. They made into the annals of videogames in the worst way possible. Now you don't complain about stuff, now you say "we're sorry and we're going to fix things ASAP". That's all. Saying anything else just adds fuel to the fire.
No. You misunderstood. Personal attacks achieve nothing. Sure, be mad at the product. Not the individual.
 
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