[Megathread] Leviathan Release Problems

[Quimera]

Less holidays, perhaps?
I guess Pinto really could use some more working hours. lol

As someone who lived in Spain for 7 years, I can confirm productivity in general is quite low. Who wants to work when inside it's too hot, and the beach is calling you?

Less taxes

Low labour cost,

My assumption is that they can pay Spanish workers less than Swedish ones for whatever reason, so it's a money-saving thing.

Men... I won't speak about Leviathan and how bad turn (well, more like broken) to be the last expansion, luckily I avoid that bullet, but yes I will speak about the misconception you have over Spain. If you want to make business in Spain like starting a small team of Devs, you indeed might go to Catalonia, easy to bring workforce from many parts of the Mediterranean with experience and quality formation, but believe when I told you that in Spain YOU DONT GO TO CA-TA-LO-NIA when you want to pay less tax, neither to the Spain Capital, Madrid, for that they would go better to Pais Vasco or Andalucia. The first not good weather but both have good workforce and quality. Sure that Spain the salaries would be lesser than in Sweden, but Barcelona is expensive to live there even when you are renting. Let remember that Spain, even if doesn't have many rights for the workers like Sweden, yes indeed we have a welfare state, and that is expensive to keep.

The only viable option I see why Tinto is a thing, is due to Johan is getting old and he wanted to move to a chill place with his family to enjoy the weather and beach. Glad for him, but it is not true at all that the Spaniards or Mediiterraneas work lesser than the North People.

 

[xrws31]

If you're talking about Europe, those states were not seen as the property of a monarch, true; but the monarch themselves would still be the central figure around which the concept of nation was constructed. Being in a nation was understood as being the subject of a king or queen, not being born in a certain territory or under a certain flag.
After the French Revolution, the people - which is also a problematic concept, for sure - would take this place as the basis of the nation. Besides that, institutions like regular armies, national institutions, collective memories and official narratives - everything we understand nowadays as "national symbols" - were reformed or even created from that point on in most countries.

I say again..... what??

The Dutch Republic? The Venetian Republic? The Swiss Cantons?

And national institutions and symbols, collective memories and mythologies, standing armies and central administrations, all of these can be found throughout the early modern, medieval, and ancient world.

Certainly the french revolution was an important accelerator in shifting the majority from monarchies to democracies, but it was in no way the inception of the idea of 'nation'.

 

[Quimera]

I wouldn't want to live poor on a beach when I can have a beautiful wage and living standard in one of the greatest countries nowadays.

You are saying that when you are from Argentinian? Again, Spain won't have the stability or so many worker privileges as Sweden. But so far Spain, Capital Madrid and Barcelona are rich and expensive, with a good workforce. Not a problem if the CEO wants to move one, rest with his family but keep working on the game while he is living far away. I am glad for him even if I disagree with how he managed the last expansions.

They're in Sitges, not in Barcelona capital. The place where the studio is located is literally surrounded by vacation apartments.

https://www.bing.com/maps?q=Sitges&aqs=edge..69i57.4229004j0j1&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531

Of course, but it is still expensive, the Coast of Catalonia in general, the studio was placed there by Johan, no problem, in normal circumstance the workforce have to move there, it is not like they are in a perpetual vacation like people make it to seem.

 

[Big Bad France]

I will disagree with this. If an Irish minor is able to conquer GB, and go on a European rampage then there's something fundamentally wrong with the game.
I know people like doing WC's as Ulm or some pathetic minor, but I'm not one of them. I would prefer the game to simulate the correct conditions of the time for all nations, the politics, the drama. Not crazy one province minors doing WC's.

I don't think it's unrealistic for an Irish minor to unify Ireland. At that point, with proper alliances, it's not unrealistic for Ireland to remain independent and establish a colonial empire. And any globe-spanning colonial empire should have the ability to successfully wage war in Europe.

Your argument reads as if someone is able to take Tyrone and immediately start ravaging Europe. That's now how it works. Most of the minors take a large degree of skill and experience to play with any level of success at all.

 

[Demony]

Men... I won't speak about Leviathan and how bad turn (well, more like broken) to be the last expansion, luckily I avoid that bullet, but yes I will speak about the misconception you have over Spain. If you want to make business in Spain like starting a small team of Devs, you indeed might go to Catalonia, easy to bring workforce from many parts of the Mediterranean with experience and quality formation, but believe when I told you that in Spain YOU DONT GO TO CA-TA-LO-NIA when you want to pay less tax, neither to the Spain Capital, Madrid, for that they would go better to Pais Vasco or Andalucia. The first not good weather but both have good workforce and quality. Sure that Spain the salaries would be lesser than in Sweden, but Barcelona is expensive to live there even when you are renting. Let remember that Spain, even if doesn't have many rights for the workers like Sweden, yes indeed we have a welfare state, and that is expensive to keep.

The only viable option I see why Tinto is a thing, is due to Johan is getting old and he wanted to move to a chill place with his family to enjoy the weather and beach. Glad for him, but it is not true at all that the Spaniards or Mediiterraneas work lesser than the North People.

They're in Sitges, not in Barcelona capital. The place where the studio is located is literally surrounded by vacation apartments.

 

[Lucododosor]

I say again..... what??

The Dutch Republic? The Venetian Republic? The Swiss Cantons?

And national institutions and symbols, collective memories and mythologies, standing armies and central administrations, all of these can be found throughout the early modern, medieval, and ancient world.

All those institutions were different from what we have today, which is a direct result from the French Revolution. That's what I meant.

 

[Torugu]

Men... I won't speak about Leviathan and how bad turn (well, more like broken) to be the last expansion, luckily I avoid that bullet, but yes I will speak about the misconception you have over Spain. If you want to make business in Spain like starting a small team of Devs, you indeed might go to Catalonia, easy to bring workforce from many parts of the Mediterranean with experience and quality formation, but believe when I told you that in Spain YOU DONT GO TO CA-TA-LO-NIA when you want to pay less tax, neither to the Spain Capital, Madrid, for that they would go better to Pais Vasco or Andalucia. The first not good weather but both have good workforce and quality. Sure that Spain the salaries would be lesser than in Sweden, but Barcelona is expensive to live there even when you are renting. Let remember that Spain, even if doesn't have many rights for the workers like Sweden, yes indeed we have a welfare state, and that is expensive to keep.

The only viable option I see why Tinto is a thing, is due to Johan is getting old and he wanted to move to a chill place with his family to enjoy the weather and beach. Glad for him, but it is not true at all that the Spaniards or Mediiterraneas work lesser than the North People.

This is just wrong. Catalonia may not be the cheapest area in Spain, but it is A LOT cheaper than northern and central Europe. And other places in Spain simply do not have the same concentration of talent that allows you to outsource there without sacrificing quality.

I work with a company that just set up an office in Barcelona for that exact reason. I think I know what I'm talking about it.

 

[Bobwoodword]

Blame the workers sweating their brows out but not the bosses, CEOs and all those that "Ka-ching!" with this. Got you.

This is such a trite dichotomy. Never blame the devs always blame the facless execs behind the scenes. Yes, the evil financial overlords can and often are to blame but the top guys at the studio have tons of influence too. Look at the studio that developed Anthem, they were given years of development with little to show for it, got their game greenlighted by the execs based on the demo even though the demo was not representative of what they actually had and they knew it, and they ignored offers of help from the studio that worked on KOTOR MMO and had experience with multiplayer. Heck, I remember when everyone blamed EA for the shift toward multiplayer (I know I did!) when in reality that shift was the brainchild of one of Bioware's original top founders. I think its absurd to blame a collective project all on one person but the idea that the studio head has zero responsibility is equally absurd. And honestly this point isn't even about this guy specifically. I'm just getting tired of the shtick where fans think developers should never bear any responsibility.

 

[xrws31]

All those institutions were different from what we have today, which is a direct result from the French Revolution. That's what I meant.

How was the British state a direct result of the French Revolution? It's been on a gradual slide from monarchy to democracy over the last 600 years, and I don't think would have happened substantively differently if the French Revolution hadn't occurred. The key moments were the reformation, english civil war, and glorious revolution.

I mean, it had some tangential impact, sure, but then so did literally every other event in the last 600 years. The extent to which Britain can be understood as a "state" is exactly the same in 1750 as in 1850, so what fundamental shift are you proposing occurred?

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any further. My point was, that there's no basis to say that "states are ahistorical for the EU4 time period", when there were clearly existing states.

 

[Quimera]

This is just wrong. Catalonia may not be the cheapest area in Spain, but it is A LOT cheaper than northern and central Europe.

Wrong, if you compare like Sweden yes, but in comparison to the standard salary that a Spaniard have? it is expensive, be sure they won't have the same salary that a guy from Sweden considers own, but the Spaniard standard. And yes, there are more places in Spain than Catalonia to do business with workers, we have many cities in Andalucia that are already veteran in making games as indies, do you know Blasphemous? And Pais Vasco and Madrid are the same as richer as Cataslonia and full of skilful programmers.

 

[seanquincy]

Hi guys, I just want to chime here.

Obviously we know that 1.31.1 is not solving all issues and we're not expecting everyone to turn around on the spot and suddenly be happy about everything. We did however want to quickly put out the fixes we could as soon as possible to remedy as much as we could instead of waiting for more. 1.31.2 is in the making and we hope to have it out soon (And we'll start working on 1.31.3 right away after that).

As some already pointed out - it's not possible to work on a build up until the minute of release obviously. There is always some time in between the last compilation of code and the release, in which the team continues to work on stuff that is meant for the next coming patch. Because; let's not pretend it's not like our releases usually needs an additional patch after release to fix issues that become known after we let you guys at it - so we are already planning for the next one.

We obviously made a grave miscalculation of the state of the version we decided to release and we are truly sorry about that. But as I also said earlier: at this point no words alone, we or I say can fix things. I can however promise you that we are working as hard as we can to get patches out, and we've taken a good hard look at how this could be allowed to happen.

I will not make excuses - only promises that we will do our very best to improve. Something we said before - but just because we might not have succeeded in the past it doesn't mean we should stop trying. We are committed to regaining the trust of those that lost it - and we know it's not something that can be done overnight.

We are lucky to have such a passionate and committed community. You've invested a lot (A LOT!) of time and money into this game, and your frustration is perfectly understandable when we mess up. But please remember that there are humans that have been putting their heart and soul into the project that can't be personally blamed for what went wrong. Yet I repeatedly see the most horrific comments - even death threats thrown left and right. We've always prided ourselves for being close to our community and for being approachable - but understandably some are less and less inclined to expose themselves as the climate become harsher. I'm sure you'd much rather talk design decisions directly with the designer that made them rather than me. It's not their job to talk to players - but they usually want to anyway if they can have a rewarding discussion.

I would like to echo what Archangel85 said in the last HoI4 Dev Diary:



So feel free to direct your critique towards Paradox and our business practices etc. Even me if you REALLY feel you want a face to yell at. But please try to remember that the developers working directly on the game all just want the same thing you do: a great game.

/Björn

Your post comes across as if this DLC didn't completely destroy the state of the game. If reverting was easy and old saves weren't destroyed at updates it wouldn't be as bad. It is unacceptable and bordering on negligence to release this DLC in it's state even after a hotfix. Bugs are not 'o this random interaction doesn't work correctly.' This DLC is 'literally every thing we sold to you in the dev diary has game breaking bugs that are findable in every single save, every single year. O and your saves aren't really saves because we didn't test the big red button on the front screen.'

These aren't bugs, this was a failure to properly test code under even the most normal circumstances. If I put this out in my job I would be fired. Describing this patch 'as there's always bugs' is insulting to bugs and your customers. You and your dev team are directly to blame for the sham of a product you have put out and deserve no trust after Imperator.

 

[LeandroB]

... but it is not true at all that the Spaniards or Mediiterraneas work lesser than the North People.

Thats the opposite of what i said. lol

 

[Kllense]

You are saying that when you are from Argentinian? Again, Spain won't have the stability or so many worker privileges as Sweden. But so far Spain, Capital Madrid and Barcelona are rich and expensive, with a good workforce. Not a problem if the CEO wants to move one, rest with his family but keep working on the game while he is living far away. I am glad for him even if I disagree with how he managed the last expansions.

Yes, I am saying this mostly because I'm from Argentina. Your son. We inherited your proclivity to disaster. Don't civil war because of this. We love you. But free Catalonia, yes?

 

[grommile]

Maybe a personal preference played a role. I know Barcelona is basically budget SF Bay Area and is relatively popular for IT companies, but there are places in Europe that could probably work even better, e.g. Prague.

Given a choice between living in Prague and living in Barcelona, I'd take Barcelona.

I'm not a fan of hot weather, but I'm also not a fan of moving to somewhere that gets even less sunlight per month in winter than London does.

 

[Quimera]

Yes, I am saying this mostly because I'm from Argentina. Your son. We inherited your proclivity to disaster. Don't civil war because of this. We love you. But free Catalonia, yes?

lol. you look like learning history from Paradox games because those false statements aren´t true, you Argentinians by your surnames happen to be more Italians than Spaniards but happen to speak Spanish like your neighbours.

If you have quarrels with Spain and need to be polite, do not quote me on this thread to avoid any deviation of the subject, and write to me privately.

But I warned you: don't blame daddy 1 if you wanted to be independent, moreover after more than 200 years of independence and because you never stop voting to the left in your country don't blame us for your poverty since the XX century, moreover when you were one of the richest countries before even Japan at the XIX century. #FreeMendoza

 

[Kllense]

You do as you are told when you are a worker. That's why the best products always come from people that works in THEIR stuff. When Paradox was your friendly Burger and beer bar from the corner it was a dream. Now that they are a zillion dollar chain their beers taste like piss and their burgers are made of rats. Johan the owner that welcomed you with a cold beer underpriced but with a delicious flavour now responds to Ebba Ljungerud. I'm just fantasy naming but what happened to Paradox, the company that I follow since Crusader Kings I (not from the release year but maybe close because it was mid 00's when I found them). I was saying, what happened to Paradox is what almost always happens with those places that go big. They turn into "the less it costs to produce, the more money we earn".

 

[XxNovaStarxX]

All the hate Johan has been getting is ridiculous. Leviathan was a horrible failure but you can't blame Johan for it, the man isn't a coder and he didn't make those bugs. Rather he's the lead designer and many of the good and well designed features in Leviathan like the native rework etc is what he primarily contributed to here. If something was implemented badly it wasn't Johan's fault he wasn't the one doing, instead he laid out the plans which were plenty good. There were no major complaints during the dev diaries. At least nothing like this. More importantly he already called what was going to happen previously. I distinctly remember Johan laying out the design philosophy for EU4 after 1.30 which itself had a lot of bugs and that philosophy was "no more major reworks until the bugs are fixed". He clearly saw that bugs were an issue and they damn well are.

So don't blame Johan. The man did what he could.

Hey Johan!

 

[Sfan]

This thread turns more and more Balkan thread.

 

[Kllense]

Relaaax, I was joking. My surname is Catalonian btw. North Catalonian from Perpignan... sooooo Free Catalonia you French imperialists!
And Italians are so similar to Iberians that they had the same face in CK2. That's history man. You can't change history.

 

[Quimera]

Relaaax, I was joking. My surname is Catalonian btw. North Catalonian from Perpignan... sooooo Free Catalonia you French imperialists!
And Italians are so similar to Iberians that they had the same face in CK2. That's history man. You can't change history.

kisses and good luck, I love the meat from Argentina, a cooker and currently fighter from there, taught me how to cook it, sad he moved years ago.