[Megathread] Leviathan Release Problems

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knuckles680

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Hello all! I have been watching the forums the past few days since Leviathan's release and want to take a few moments to address some of the ongoing trends that have left me concerned not only for paradox staff members, but the community that has itself been so integral to the development of great games.

First, I want to remind every disappointed fan about the current technological debt within Eu4. For anyone who hasn't read Johan's post about the current development philosophy I have included a link. Dev Diary 20th of April 2021 Its a great post that provides a lot of context to what has been going on behind the scenes at paradox during the Covid-19 pandemic. This has not been a normal year for the studio, and still they managed to close over +1000 bugs that were leftover from previous patches. Its true that the leviathan release has resulted in a flood of new bug reports, but this is not because the team hasn't been doing any work this year. The actual code that runs the game is incredibly complex because it's been worked over and changed countless times since the game's original release in 2013. Every time a new patch comes out, it is almost like the studio is designing a whole new game, except they have to make the new code work with the old. A lot of blame has been placed on the QA team, as though Paradox isn't aware of the bugs in the game script. They definitely are, but changing the code so that it works takes time with a game as old as Eu4.

So, you may be wondering at this point why the studio doesn't just focus all their efforts on reducing the bug count instead of releasing new content. The answer is simple: content releases are one way that the studio brings in new funds to pay its dev team. Paradox's business model is actually quite similar to crowdfunding in that the game you pay for at the original release is very different from later states of the game. These $20 releases (which is actually a low price point for game content) are one way that Eu4 continues to get better as a game and stay relevant for fans. However, the game has incurred a huge amount of technological debt at this point, so each new release feels like a slap in the face to fans when they just see the bug count increase rather than decrease. No one is talking about the massive amount of bugs that were just closed in this patch because the new ones are so glaring. Unplayability due to lost saves is a particularly frustrating thing to encounter with a game that takes as much time as Eu4 does (I myself lost an ironman save this patch and was disappointed).

The question I would like to pose to the community is this: how can we help Paradox with the technological debt of the game? If the studio depends on releases to generate revenue to pay their teams, how can it do that while also reducing the overall bug count? I am genuinely asking because it is sad to watch my fellow players (whose frustration I totally understand) tear Paradox apart for a problem that they have been trying to fix for years. I welcome y'alls thoughts on this.
 
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Kllense

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This is the reason why I play CK2 and not the third or Imperator Rome. They are great games by now but the release felt so empty that I kind of forgot about them.
 

Godd_Howard

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I don't even think they have a single living person handeling refunds. So the best bet would be to write to customer support if your really want to refund it, maybe that will help - just say the thruth about it breaking your game.
 

deathbypie

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"Number of bugs" is a meaningless metric, unless you consider the council of Trent and tributaries being very buggy equally important as localization fixes. Of course nobody is talking about hundreds of bug fixes when the game is left in a worse state than it was before recent patches. I'll admit I only skimmed through the bug fixes, because they were terribly organized and unclear, but most of it seemed unimportant.

I guess you could claim that Paradox has been trying to fix the problem of "tech debt" for years...but have they really? Do the reasons even matter? If they advertise a working product, and then release one that...doesn't work, why does it matter if it's because of "tech debt" or not? If they actually are unable to create working dlc, then they probably shouldn't be releasing anything.

I also don't see how bug fixes even relates to the Leviathan release: people shouldn't be expected to pay for bug fixing. That's backwards.
 
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Danijoe

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I dunno. If they released a DLC that didn't have content per se, but fixed many bugs, and maybe made it a little cheaper than a usual DLC I would consider buying it.
You must either be a shill or get everything paid for by your parents or something lol, I cannot believe anyone that earned their own money would actually say this
 
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Yanda

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Old saves always get corrupt with a new DLC/patch. You must start a new game.
It wasn't an old save, it was a save I start in patch 1.31.1

You can't, I had the same problems after trying to refund emperor. Steam won't budge and paradox won't help.

The problem with paradox games and dlcs is that it takes more than 2 hours to tell if they're in a playable state. I refuse to buy any more paradox products on release because they're always broken.

Sorry, you lost out but just consider it a warning for the future. don't buy stuff on release, wait to see if it's a scam first...
I know I should have check forums, reddit, etc... But for my defense product like this litteraly breaking the game should not be able to be sell....

I don't even think they have a single living person handeling refunds. So the best bet would be to write to customer support if your really want to refund it, maybe that will help - just say the thruth about it breaking your game.
You mean on steam or directly with paradox ? On steam it doesn't seems I can talk with an human person, I feel like it's automatized.
 

Godd_Howard

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You mean on steam or directly with paradox ? On steam it doesn't seems I can talk with an human person, I feel like it's automatized.
I meant steam yes. Wow they really changed it since the last time I used it. Can't even find anything remotely related to refunds on there. Great job steam. I guess you can't talk to them about it after all... The absolute state of this industry.
 

Mauer

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You must either be a shill or get everything paid for by your parents or something lol, I cannot believe anyone that earned their own money would actually say this
Right? wth

This person must get swindled all the time, take their car to the shop for a broken tail light and it comes back without brakes, then graciously pays again to have that fixed.
 
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Mauer

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The management will never do it, their hubris and greed is beyond this mortal realm.
Plus you are implying management even communincates with the devs other than in a "Make me money or I fire you" kind of way. If their developers get this kind of treatment they are not even going to waste a single breath on the customers.
They literally fired an entire QA department without even telling the developers that depended on that department.
 
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Maxxie42

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What was the issue with protectorates? The guarantee by a western GP?
What wasn't the issue, more like. For me, what made them absolutely horrible is the fact that if your protectorates, which you had fought to conquer, westernized and caught up in tech, they stopped being your protectorate. Just like that. You couldn't do anything about it, and you didn't get a CB to get them back or make them your vassal, either.
 
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MagisterMundi

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I dunno. If they released a DLC that didn't have content per se, but fixed many bugs, and maybe made it a little cheaper than a usual DLC I would consider buying it.
...you would give them money just so they'd fix their game? Really? Setting aside the fact that you would be paying them to do something they should already be doing as part of, you know, maintaining their own game, do you realize what an absolutely terrible precedent that would set? Just imagine what a company like EA would do with "paid patches" as a concept. Buggy code in their games would no longer be something for them to avoid. Instead, make sure it's as buggy as possible and then charge customers for the fix! Brilliant!
 
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EUnderhill

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What wasn't the issue, more like. For me, what made them absolutely horrible is the fact that if your protectorates, which you had fought to conquer, westernized and caught up in tech, they stopped being your protectorate. Just like that. You couldn't do anything about it, and you didn't get a CB to get them back or make them your vassal, either.
If they Westernize and tech up, they don't really need the "protection" anymore now do they? Mind you, this should be more a Victoria-era phenomenon, not that of an EU game but still it does seem a logical thing to have happen.
 

Alexios I Kommenos

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Honestly, if Tinto just decided to put Leviathan on the back burner until covid was less of a problem and had sorted any internal issues that may have existed within the studio and instead made an Immersion Pack (possibly focused on an Asian country) and developed it in the same amount of time it took Leviathan to be developed it probably would have received mostly positive reviews from the community. From there, they could use that experience and covid beginning to be less of an issue than when Tinto was being created to create more ambitious expansions to the game.

The fact they didn't lead me to presume that Paradox management pressured Tinto into continuing development for the expansion. Granted I know nothing about game development, so I could just be chatting out of my ass. However, in hindsight, it feels like given the sheer scope of what was being changed and the issues created as a result of covid and development moving to a new studio makes this whole issue we see today feel somewhat inevitable.
 
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Maxxie42

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If they Westernize and tech up, they don't really need the "protection" anymore now do they? Mind you, this should be more a Victoria-era phenomenon, not that of an EU game but still it does seem a logical thing to have happen.

I don't question the logic behind it, I'm saying it's terrible from a gameplay perspective. Imagine playing as a colonizer, you arrive to India, and you think "hey, let's roleplay a bit and go for a protectorate !" You choose one country to conquer, make it a protectorate and then spend 30 years feeding it the rest of India. You then turn your attention somewhere else, and a few years later, you realize that your protectorate is gone. Your entire conquest of India has been for nothing. Would that make you want to go for protectorates again ?
 
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EUnderhill

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I don't question the logic behind it, I'm saying it's terrible from a gameplay perspective. Imagine playing as a colonizer, you arrive to India, and you think "hey, let's roleplay a bit and go for a protectorate !" You choose one country to conquer, make it a protectorate and then spend 30 years feeding it the rest of India. You then turn your attention somewhere else, and a few years later, you realize that your protectorate is gone. Your entire conquest of India has been for nothing. Would that make you want to go for protectorates again ?
It would make me want to keep more careful tabs on what is going on so I at least see it coming....not that I don't pause every month anyway.
 

Livigy

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Doing flavour packs like mission tree's new formable nations portraits etc can provide additional depth to the game without introducing new mechanics to break the game further. This would be an income that isn't mechanically disruptive while they focus resources on bug fixes and people would likely appreciate having a refresh on some neglected areas of the game like Africa and south America etc.

Considering the Mamelukes start as number 2 world power they have a really out dated mission tree as an example and removing as many generic mission trees as possible would be one way to enhance the game without breaking it unless you go out of your way to add broken mission rewards.
 
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Snake_Squeezins

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Agreed that the new mechanics in LEVIATHAN will likely either become another "Expel Minorities" (ie abandoned before ever becoming useful or historical) or another "Search for Seven Cities" (ie worked great once but was then nerfed to uselessness). Fixing a mechanic takes time, while just cutting it out of the game is fast and easy - and the pressure is on PDX to move on from this catastrophic failure as fast as possible.
 
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